A ? about messianic jews.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Because Trinitarian Churches and literature are much more available than ours. When seeking they will usually be exposed to their doctrine first. Most usually believe what they are told at least for a season before exploring the word for themselves.

So these folks are lost because Apostolics didn't have enough money to reach them.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by houston

Are there Messianic Jews that are "oneness?" Why are most Messianic Jews Trinitarians? Isn't that an oxymoron (Trinitarian Jew).

That's an interesting question. Could be that most of their "influences" outside of judaism have been trinitarian sources?

Most Messianic Jews I have known are also Zionist Jews...so with that description comes the inevitable conclusion that they are dispensationalist. I have never met a partial preterist/preterist Messianic Jew. That said, I wonder how many rabbis of these synagogues really understand God in Christ.

I have a theory that the creation of the nation/state of Israel by the UN in 1948 rather than being the "budding tree" indicating the beginning of end-time events rather has helped promote the notion that the Jews as a race are the chosen of God and validates the futuristic teaching of a parenthetical church in the New Testament.
In fact, futurism (along with Zionistic dispensationalist beliefs held by the Hagees and Lindseys of the world) has damaged evangelistic efforts across cultural lines CONTRARY to the gospel of Jesus Christ. This doctrine would have well suited the religious jews that continually persecuted the Acts church.

There is only ONE gospel and only ONE dispensation...the dispensation of the FULNESS of times. Anything else brings a stinging rebuke from the word of God.

...But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed Galatians 1:8

JMO, hehe.

[Sabby]

Has anyone out there known a Messianic Rabbi that is partial preterist/preterist?

[Sister Alvear]

ask Brother Blume...he might know...

[Sister Alvear]

I do not believe God has 2 churches....

[Sister Alvear]

if we were grafted in the original...we became one...not two...

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

if we were grafted in the original...we became one...not two...

And, there dear sister, you have nailed it.

We, as disciples of Christ are 'grafted' into the tree that springs up from Abraham, and we are 'adopted' into the tribe of Judah (Jesus is our brother).

The problem is that few are aware of what that actually means concerning their relationship to/with God - and fewer even care.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sabby

Has anyone out there known a Messianic Rabbi that is partial preterist/preterist?

I hardly know the persuasion of ANY Messianic rabbis.

As an aside, anyone ever think of this? According to Paul in Galatians 4, the Church and the New Covenant is likened to the New Jerusalem which is above and to SARAH, the freewoman, and the believers of the New Covenant are likened unto Isaac the child of promise. The Old Covenant is compared to Hagar the bondwoman and earthly Jerusalem in the days of the early church, and the adherents were likened to Ishmael. Paul said that as Ishmael persecuted Isaac, even so it was in the days of the early church. The Jews were persecuting the Christians.

Considering all of that, especially the Jews looked upon as Ishmael and the Christians as Isaac, CHRISTIANS ARE MORE "ISRAELITE" IN THE EYES OF GOD THAN UNBELIEVING JEWS!

This is where the olive tree comes into play in Romans 11. The unbelieving Jews were broken off the olive tree. If they believe, they shall be grafted back on again. But we are there on the olive tree and unbelieving Israel is not. And it is THEIR OLIVE TREE!

I think this is where Jeremiah 31:31 comes into play. The New Covenant is FOR ISRAEL AND JUDAH. And Gentiles were allowed into THEIR covenant for the first time in history! No wonder Romans 9 says not everyone who is commonly considered Israel is actually Israel in the eyes of God! The children of promise are counted for the seed!

Ephesians 2 says we were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But now we are fellowcitizens!

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Would that not mean God views ALL believers as Israelites? Comments?

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I hardly know the persuasion of ANY Messianic rabbis.

As an aside, anyone ever think of this? According to Paul in Galatians 4, the Church and the New Covenant is likened to the New Jerusalem which is above and to SARAH, the freewoman, and the believers of the New Covenant are likened unto Isaac the child of promise. The Old Covenant is compared to Hagar the bondwoman and earthly Jerusalem in the days of the early church, and the adherents were likened to Ishmael. Paul said that as Ishmael persecuted Isaac, even so it was in the days of the early church. The Jews were persecuting the Christians.

Considering all of that, especially the Jews looked upon as Ishmael and the Christians as Isaac, CHRISTIANS ARE MORE "ISRAELITE" IN THE EYES OF GOD THAN UNBELIEVING JEWS!

This is where the olive tree comes into play in Romans 11. The unbelieving Jews were broken off the olive tree. If they believe, they shall be grafted back on again. But we are there on the olive tree and unbelieving Israel is not. And it is THEIR OLIVE TREE!

I think this is where Jeremiah 31:31 comes into play. The New Covenant is FOR ISRAEL AND JUDAH. And Gentiles were allowed into THEIR covenant for the first time in history! No wonder Romans 9 says not everyone who is commonly considered Israel is actually Israel in the eyes of God! The children of promise are counted for the seed!

Ephesians 2 says we were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But now we are fellowcitizens!

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Would that not mean God views ALL believers as Israelites? Comments?

Absolutely.

We are fellowheirs as those that walk by faith and not by sight.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:16

If seed were plural we might have reason to believe the Jews as a race would also receive those promises provided to the church. but
For he is our peace, who hath made both (jew and gentile) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Ephesians 2:14

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Ephesians 2:1

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. I Corinthians 12:13

If there is a different bibllical standard today for the nation of Israel I would love to see it.

[Michael The Disciple]

Hashaliac:

Gentile Oneness believers, for the most part, view God as a three-sided monolith consisting of three facings, consisting of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Never heard a Oneness EVER say that. All Oneness that I know of agree on this point. God is only seen in the face of Jesus Christ.

Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father.

Shaliac:

Trinitarians view God as a single being with three separate manifestations, not unlike being made in God’s image with a body, soul and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23 bases on Genesis 1:26 (NET)

Very few Trins say God is three manifestations. They are accused of being Oneness if they do because thats what WE say.