What is the Gospel? (Chester & Vandersteit)

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Just something the thread title reminded me of. Not a bad video though.

It was a good discussion for anyone that took the time to listen in.

Sounds like teaching that you'd find agreeable as well, Aquila.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

I like your tag line.

Mathetes, Matheteuo. Disciple making.

"Mathetes, when used in the context of following Jesus suggests that the learning is expressed in outward behaviour. The learning is not merely intellectual, yet begins with the intellect and then is demonstrated in a person’s life. The word "mathete" was used in Classical Greek by the philosophers meaning an apprentices. In Jewish culture "mathete" was used in a teacher pupil relationship. The Rabbi would teach the student the Law of God.

Mathete had a much more intimate meaning to Jesus than it did to Pharisees, who also had Mathetes. For Jesus it was multiplication -- and he expected the Body to do the discipling, starting with the 12. We are discipling others to make disciples of Jesus. It's a beautiful thing.

The word "mathete" was used in Classical Greek by the philosophers meaning an apprentices.

I was sharing this with someone yesterday and they said, "I like that! We are working for Jesus."

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I was sharing this with someone yesterday and they said, "I like that! We are working for Jesus."

That's interesting. I never would have emphasized the "working" relationship, but that's an interesting perspective. We are apprentices who are bringing other apprentices alongside of us -- sharing life and discipling them in this way. Modeling the Gospel. Using everyday life as an opportunity to point back to the Gospel, to Jesus.

Disciples making disciples.
Apprentices making apprentices.

I see it less as working for, and more of learning from. But that's just my take. Glad it inspired someone else

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

That's interesting. I never would have emphasized the "working" relationship, but that's an interesting perspective. We are apprentices who are bringing other apprentices alongside of us -- sharing life and discipling them in this way. Modeling the Gospel. Using everyday life as an opportunity to point back to the Gospel, to Jesus.

Disciples making disciples.
Apprentices making apprentices.

I see it less as working for, and more of learning from. But that's just my take. Glad it inspired someone else

I think that an "apprentice" both learns and works. "Labour" for want of a better word.

Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy teaching/discipling, by their example, on what it means to labour for the Kingdom of God.

"For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God." I Thessalonians 2:9

Paul shows that his convert, Epaphras, has followed their example and laboured in prayer.

"Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God." Colossians 4:12

I think there is much labour/work involved in the Kingdom of God. Everything we do, we are doing for Jesus Christ. So, I don't think it's too far off the mark to call us "apprentices" for Jesus. We are ever learning.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I think that an "apprentice" both learns and works. "Labour" for want of a better word.

Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy teaching/discipling, by their example, on what it means to labour for the Kingdom of God.

"For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God." I Thessalonians 2:9

Paul shows that his convert, Epaphras, has followed their example and laboured in prayer.

"Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God." Colossians 4:12

I think there is much labour/work involved in the Kingdom of God. Everything we do, we are doing for Jesus Christ. So, I don't think it's too far off the mark to call us "apprentices" for Jesus. We are ever learning.

Interesting points.

If discipling means "working for" though, then whomever I disciple, are they "working for" me? See the tension/conflict?

Col 4:
These are the only Jews[c] among my co-workers for the kingdom of God, and they have proved a comfort to me. 12 Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured.

To be sure, we are co-laborers with Jesus. Meaning we are about the Father's business. But is discipleship itself a thing of labor? The verse above, by the way, is not really a discipleship context. It's in the middle of a typical Roman greeting in a letter, and it basically says Epaphras labors/wrestles/interceded in prayer.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

Interesting points.

If discipling means "working for" though, then whomever I disciple, are they "working for" me? See the tension/conflict?

Col 4:
These are the only Jews[c] among my co-workers for the kingdom of God, and they have proved a comfort to me. 12 Epaphras, who is one of you and a servant of Christ Jesus, sends greetings. He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the will of God, mature and fully assured.

To be sure, we are co-laborers with Jesus. Meaning we are about the Father's business. But is discipleship itself a thing of labor? The verse above, by the way, is not really a discipleship context. It's in the middle of a typical Roman greeting in a letter, and it basically says Epaphras labors/wrestles/interceded in prayer.

I don't think there would be any conflict.

Peter demonstrated that when Cornelius met him, fell at his feet and worshiped him. Peter told him to stand up, "I myself am also a man." It simply points to the fact, at all times, they knew who they were serving and laboring for - Jesus Christ and His Kingdom.

When Paul uses the term "fellow-workers", in Colossians 4:11, it is defined as a "co-laborer/companion in labor". He is projecting the same frame of mind as Peter.

I think anytime we teach someone anything, we stand back and watch them work/labor to see how they fair with the understanding we have given them.

Colossians 4 says that Epaphras is a servant of Christ and wrestles/labors in prayer. Would we call that a labor of love? To me, it shows that someone taught Epaphras how to labor for and in the Kingdom.

So, yes, I think that discipleship is a thing of labor. Isn't that what we do when we teach a child to read, write or ride a bike, etc.? We stand back and watch them use that intellect. It is a labor on our part and theirs as well, IMO. I've taught younger people how to teach a Sunday School class, how to produce artwork, how to spend and save money, etc. I do consider that labor, although not tiring labor. At least not always. LOL!

Paul calls himself a "prisoner" of Christ.

"For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,"
(Ephesians 3:1)

And he wants us to remember those bonds - "Remember my bonds." (Colossians 4:18)

A willing prisoner. That is a work and labor of love, IMO.

[Maximilian]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't think there would be any conflict.

Peter demonstrated that when Cornelius met him, fell at his feet and worshiped him. Peter told him to stand up, "I myself am also a man." It simply points to the fact, at all times, they knew who they were serving and laboring for - Jesus Christ and His Kingdom.

When Paul uses the term "fellow-workers", in Colossians 4:11, it is defined as a "co-laborer/companion in labor". He is projecting the same frame of mind as Peter.

I think anytime we teach someone anything, we stand back and watch them work/labor to see how they fair with the understanding we have given them.

Colossians 4 says that Epaphras is a servant of Christ and wrestles/labors in prayer. Would we call that a labor of love? To me, it shows that someone taught Epaphras how to labor for and in the Kingdom.

So, yes, I think that discipleship is a thing of labor. Isn't that what we do when we teach a child to read, write or ride a bike, etc.? We stand back and watch them use that intellect. It is a labor on our part and theirs as well, IMO. I've taught younger people how to teach a Sunday School class, how to produce artwork, how to spend and save money, etc. I do consider that labor, although not tiring labor. At least not always. LOL!

Paul calls himself a "prisoner" of Christ.

"For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,"
(Ephesians 3:1)

And he wants us to remember those bonds - "Remember my bonds." (Colossians 4:18)

A willing prisoner. That is a work and labor of love, IMO.

We may be getting at two separate ideas here. At least that may be the case.

Does Discipleship require labor? Yes. Does Peter/Cornelius and the Col references above have discipleship in view? I don't think that's clear. Discipleship is more than teaching... though it's definitely included. The emphasis is more on HOW we are teaching and "making disciples." That the one being discipled should understand they are co-laborers with Christ is the goal of discipling. It's one of those truths passed on in a relational way. But is it discipleship itself?

Col 4, the greeting doesn't really seem to feed into the topic. He's referring to a guy that intercedes for others. The prisoner references that Paul uses as analogy all point us to his emphasis on what he feels is a responsibility, and that tells us how convinced he is about his call! (A great point about The Call similar to Jesus' teaching about the man who is unworthy who puts his hand to the plow and looks back).

Discipleship involves labor, but I'm not sure labor is discipleship (I guess that's my summary). We are making disciples, effectively fellow laborers for Christ, but our discipleship process is a living and relational apprenticeship intimately in other's lives in the most primary of senses.

You have to love dialogues like this where after while we scratch our heads wondering if we are disagreeing or just coming at something differently.

Thanks for sharing.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

We may be getting at two separate ideas here. At least that may be the case.

Does Discipleship require labor? Yes. Does Peter/Cornelius and the Col references above have discipleship in view? I don't think that's clear. Discipleship is more than teaching... though it's definitely included. The emphasis is more on HOW we are teaching and "making disciples." That the one being discipled should understand they are co-laborers with Christ is the goal of discipling. It's one of those truths passed on in a relational way. But is it discipleship itself?

Col 4, the greeting doesn't really seem to feed into the topic. He's referring to a guy that intercedes for others. The prisoner references that Paul uses as analogy all point us to his emphasis on what he feels is a responsibility, and that tells us how convinced he is about his call! (A great point about The Call similar to Jesus' teaching about the man who is unworthy who puts his hand to the plow and looks back).

Discipleship involves labor, but I'm not sure labor is discipleship (I guess that's my summary). We are making disciples, effectively fellow laborers for Christ, but our discipleship process is a living and relational apprenticeship intimately in other's lives in the most primary of senses.

You have to love dialogues like this where after while we scratch our heads wondering if we are disagreeing or just coming at something differently.

Thanks for sharing.

Well, it appears to me that we are really agreeing. At least I am agreeing with you.

I don't think that labor is only discipleship, but I don't think we can deny labor is not an element also.

I see Peter, not unlike ourselves, on his way to Cornelius' house knowing that he must try to build a strong foundation in this group's lives that can stand the test of time and weather the storms that will surely come against their lives. As it does to us all. That is, primarily, our objective when we say we are winning the lost.

He will want to teach/disciple Cornelius and his household on the beauty, strength and of the prophecies given about Jesus Christ in the Law and Prophets. That would be the foundation. Then by example, he must teach them how to live and use this truth properly. To me, discipleship is a labor of love.

They will then be fellowworkers/co-labours in the Kingdom of God. And if we are admonished to go and "teach/disciple" all nations, it starts and continues an ever going cycle - teach - send - teach - send - "pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest." (Luke 10:2)

"We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain." 2 Corinthians 6:1 Do something with it.

If we are admonished to always "disciple" and we are "workers together", what work are we doing? What are we laboring to do? Disciple.

Just my thoughts.

[Maximilian]

So, to take a turn on our discussion: what does discipleship look like?

Some churches create "Discipleship Courses" where an instructor (pastor) sits behind a lecturn and teaches. Is this discipleship?

How do we know if we are discipling others?

How do we know if we are disciples?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Maximilian

So, to take a turn on our discussion: what does discipleship look like?

Some churches create "Discipleship Courses" where an instructor (pastor) sits behind a lecturn and teaches. Is this discipleship?

How do we know if we are discipling others?

How do we know if we are disciples?

Well, I'm sure there are others more capable of answering you than I am and I'm surprised you haven't had more involved on this interesting thread.

I think open discussion is imperative. It needs to be a give and take, IMO. If you have a group that it too large, then you need to divide that up to make room. People want and need to speak and ask questions. Just filtering a speaker is not going to do the trick. That doesn't mean that I don't think there are times that we need to sit down and listen. And I believe that the five-fold ministry is an integral part of discipleship too.

If people are progressing in a fruitful way in their personal life and are reaching out to others, that is when you know your discipling is working, IMO.

How do we know if we are disciples? Isn't that interesting how a new convert will come in and dash all of your hopes of feeling you have arrived? LOL! They have a way of keeping you humble and knowing that you DO NOT know everything. I can be in a leadership position fully aware that I have much more to learn. That makes me a disciple.