Tithing is a consecration, not a commandment

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

I wonder how many come to AFF as lurkers.

There is a core of posters on here.. but I am always seeing hundreds of lurkers through the day.

Probably a good number of them.

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by Aquila

We hear preachers screaming, revival, revival, revival. American DOESN'T need a revival... it needs a REFORMATION.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over while expecting different results. This isn't working. If you truly want a revolution... you have to think like a revolutionary.

Do you want a revolution???

How absolutely refreshing! The entire post!

Just a couple of added notes:

First, to ask for, receive or give a biblical tithe today is to sin before God. That is why Observant Jews and Messianic Jews do not tithe, with the exception of a few Hellenism (Greek mindset) Jews. All biblical tithing ceased at the destruction of the Temple and the disbanding of the Priesthood. We are now the new Royal Priesthood, and the man Jesus is our High Priest and only mediator between man and God.

To impose (religious edict) any tithing system today, on anyone, requires the direct alteration of the word of God (Commandments, Laws, Ordinances, Statutes) to meet the requirements of a man created agenda. To deliberately change the word of God and falsifying its application is counted as sin (Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32). To fail to perform the Law of God as He gave it (instructed), is to transgress the Law. That too is identified as a sin. (1 John 3:4)

So, what we have today are groups of men who have taken upon themselves the (usurped) authority to alter the word of God, His instructions in righteousness, and rewrote and reinterpreted that word to serve their own purposes.

What is wrong with this picture?

Of course, one will not make too many friends with kind of attitude, especially when tithing is a required acceptance of an article of faith. along side the seconding coming of Jesus Christ.

Traditions of men trump scripture.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

How absolutely refreshing! The entire post!

Just a couple of added notes:

First, to ask for, receive or give a biblical tithe today is to sin before God. That is why Observant Jews and Messianic Jews do not tithe, with the exception of a few Hellenism (Greek mindset) Jews. All biblical tithing ceased at the destruction of the Temple and the disbanding of the Priesthood. We are now the new Royal Priesthood, and the man Jesus is our High Priest and only mediator between man and God.

To impose (religious edict) any tithing system today, on anyone, requires the direct alteration of the word of God (Commandments, Laws, Ordinances, Statutes) to meet the requirements of a man created agenda. To deliberately change the word of God and falsifying its application is counted as sin (Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32). To fail to perform the Law of God as He gave it (instructed), is to transgress the Law. That too is identified as a sin. (1 John 3:4)

So, what we have today are groups of men who have taken upon themselves the (usurped) authority to alter the word of God, His instructions in righteousness, and rewrote and reinterpreted that word to serve their own purposes.

What is wrong with this picture?

Of course, one will not make too many friends with kind of attitude, especially when tithing is a required acceptance of an article of faith. along side the seconding coming of Jesus Christ.

Traditions of men trump scripture.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. lol

Oh, and AMEN.

[AmericanAngel]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It's also important to note, the Apostolic Church that overwelmed Rome traveled lite. They didn't have massive church buildings, campuses, or massive religious buearcracies to fund. They met in homes for study and fellowship. They preached in the open air, in the streets, markets, highways, byways, edges, barns, riversides, fields, public forums, etc. For the first 300 years of Christianity they didn't feel the need to own one inch of land or property. Christianity was a religion of family, friends, and community. The average gathering in a home was 15-25 adults. Meetings were interractive and all were allowed to prophesy, share experiences, understandings, and insights. The priesthood of all believers prevailed. Elders were facilitators, bishops appointed elders throughout their cities. It was a church without walls. Emphasis wasn't placed on paying ministers (most worked a trade). Emphasis was on giving and the sharing of resources with lost souls who were poor and destitute. The sun was their light system, song birds their choir, the grass of the fields were their carpeting, their shoe leather was their platform and pulpit. The breeze was their air condition system. And their homes were their offices. Their wasn't any need for a "tithe". Offerings to assist in travel and lodging, and the sharing of possessions allowed the church (or the body of believers) to meet it's needs.

The true "biblical" church model is a church that met anywhere and everywhere. Today the average American has no need for attending services that equate to a religious concert accompanied by a motivational speaker that all must listen to while sitting passively in their pews. Most spiritually inclinded Americans want a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus. They get their spiritual needs met by reading articles in magazines or on the net, reading devotional Bibles, radio ministries, television ministries, and by having "fellowship" with co-workers, friends, and family. The modern system is primarily a money making machine that has no biblical precedent. The current system caters to the professional carreer of one man and his vision for his little kingdom complete with castle. When we get the church (the body of Christ) thinking outside of the building and structured services, and focusing on living their Christian lives out at home, at work, in the market, and gathering and preaching in homes and the streets.... seeing those things as the "assembling of ourselves" and our "reasonable service" we'll get a revelation of "the Kingdom" that is so much greater than organizational and denomiantional institutionalized religion. We have to win this world for Christ Jesus. We have to touch EVERY life in our cities with the gospel. That cannot be done by trying to drag them to a building with ploys involving concerts, ipods, Nintindos, PlayStations, computers, and other free material gifts. GIMMICKS! It's like trying to sell AMWAY. We have a "used car salesman" spirit that has all the banners, freebies, gimmicks, selling points, etc. We need to get OUT and advance the KINGDOM in the streets, bring faith and biblical focus back into our homes. The revival God wants to give us is far too BIG to fit into a building. Far too BIG to fit into our organizational buearcracies. Far too intelligent to be fleeced for money. Far too intelligent to rationalize 80% of revenue going to brick and mortor. Far too personal in it's relationship to God to submit to the total authority of a cult of personality that serves as a "go between" between them and their Lord. They NEED servants in ministry to equip THEM... not to subjugate them and relegate them to a pew so that tithes and offerings can be milked from them for salaries, buildings, programs, and campuses. We're entering a new era. A global era without buildings, walls, and religious politics. People are starving for the REAL DEAL lived out every day in the home and on the streets, not some cheesey religious "show" or production twice a week. If "church" as we're doing it is so powerful, so effective, and so absolutely needed... why are we loosing our neighborhoods, communities, cities, and our nation in this culture war? We've cloistered into our churches, denominations, organizations, and programs... virtually abandoning the world to sin, the flesh, and the devil. Occasionally we sound out from our cloistered existance and call for them to join us. They will not cloister themselves. It's like the era when the church retreatd into monastaries. We have to loose the "building mentality". Preachers woe and whine because they "need a building". They fail to see that the Apostolic Church of the NT took Rome by storm... without any sense of needing a single building, sound system, choir to entertain, or celebrity guest speakers; homes, streets, markets, and fields were good enough for them.

The tithe is a necessity to fund this top heavy, expensive, and ineffective system. That's why they plead for it. They're sincere, but their vision is clouded. They are wanting to build a kingdom of their religion... but the Kingdom of God is so much greater. The Kingdom of God has no need for brick, mortor, performances, shows, concerts, gimmicks, or tithes. God is seeking... SOULS.

Are you "called to preach"? Don't worry about the suit you wear. Don't worry about a "license" and all the prestige. Don't think you need a solid oak pulpit with a nice glass of water to sip from under the hot lights of a high platform in a prim and proper sanctuary. Don't think you need a five point sermon complete with analogies and all the sophistication of "homeletics" accompanied by the FAKE "preacher's cough". No... you don't need it. There are STREET CORNERS throughout our cities where you can evangelize. There are homes throughout the city where you can teach. Get your head out of the buildings and systems of man... get your focus on what this really is... A KINGDOM.

Now... do we have the courage to do what it takes to turn our backs on the system and win our world for Jesus Christ? Or are we just going to allow ourselves to be content with playing church two or three times a week in our sanctified little self serving concert, always seeing the same sanctified faces glued to their pews, always seeing 80% or more of visitors come... and then go? We hear preachers screaming, revival, revival, revival. American DOESN'T need a revival... it needs a REFORMATION.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over while expecting different results. This isn't working. If you truly want a revolution... you have to think like a revolutionary.

Do you want a revolution???

Now that's what I'm talkin about!! Amen!

[AmericanAngel]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

I wonder how many come to AFF as lurkers.

There is a core of posters on here.. but I am always seeing hundreds of lurkers through the day.

I am a "lurker", but I have my reasons!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

First, to ask for, receive or give a biblical tithe today is to sin before God. .

What exactly do you mean by a "biblical tithe"?

Is it a sin to give a tithe in the same manner that Abraham or Jacob did? Is that what you mean by a "biblical tithe"?

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What exactly do you mean by a "biblical tithe"?

Is it a sin to give a tithe in the same manner that Abraham or Jacob did? Is that what you mean by a "biblical tithe"?

If I may... many of our preachers ask for a tithe which is 10% of a persons gross and call it their tithes or biblical tithes.

I think the point he was making is that Christian preachers are putting folks back under the law... and even if they are doing that its still wrong because there are multiple tithes in the Old Testament in the 7 year cycle. Hence they get it double wrong..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe#I...der_Mosaic_Law

From Wikipedia:

In the time of Moses and Under Mosaic Law
The tithe is specifically mentioned in the Book of Leviticus, the Book of Numbers and also in the Book of Deuteronomy. The tithing system was organized in a 7 year cycle, corresponding to the Shemittah cycle. Every year, Bikkurim, Terumah, Ma'aser Rishon and Terumat Ma'aser were separated from the grain, wine and oil (as regards other fruit and produce, the Biblical requirement to tithe is a source of debate). Deuteronomy 14:22 Unlike other offerings which were restricted to consumption within the tabernacle, the yearly tithe to the Levites could be consumed anywhere (Numbers 18:31-14). On years one, two, four and five of the Shemittah cycle, God commanded the Children of Israel to take a second tithe that was to be brought to the city of Jerusalem. Deuteronomy 14:23 The owner of the produce was to separate and bring 1/10 of his finished produce to Jerusalem after separating Terumah and the first tithe, but if the family lived too far from Jerusalem, the tithe could be redeemed upon coins. Deuteronomy 14:23Then, the Bible required the owner of the redeemed coins to spend the tithe "to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish." Deuteronomy 14:22-27 Implicit in the commandment was an obligation to spend the coins on items meant for human consumption. According to the Hebrew Scriptures, the second tithe could be brought to Jerusalem any time of the year and there was no specific obligation to bring the second tithe to Jerusalem for the Festival of Sukkot. The only time restriction was a commandment to remove all the tithes from one's house in the end of the third year. Deuteronomy 14:28
The third year was called "the year of tithing" Deuteronomy 26:12-14 in which the Israelites set aside 10% of the increase of the land, they were to give this tithe to the Levites, strangers, orphans, and widows. These tithes were in reality more like taxes for the people of Israel and were mandatory, not optional giving. This tithe was distributed locally "within thy gates" Deuteronomy 14:28 to support the Levites and assist the poor.
The Levites, also known as the tribe of Levi, were descendants of Levi. They were assistants to the Israelite priests (who were the children of Aaron and, therefore, a subset of the Tribe of Levi) and did not own or inherit a territorial patrimony Numbers 18:21-28. Their function in society was that of temple functionaries, teachers and trusted civil servants who supervised the weights and scales and witnessed agreements. The goods donated from the other Israeli tribes were their source of sustenance. They received from "all Israel" a tithe of food or livestock for support, and in turn would set aside a tenth portion of that tithe for the Aaronic priests in Jerusalem.

[Cindy]

Did the apostle's depend on others supporting them and their ministry?

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What exactly do you mean by a "biblical tithe"?

Is it a sin to give a tithe in the same manner that Abraham or Jacob did? Is that what you mean by a "biblical tithe"?

Apocrypha provided a good overview of the 'biblical tithe'.

The tithing requirements are spelled out in great detail within the scriptures. The tithe, what constitutes the tithe, when, where and to whom it is to be presented, who was to give it and the manner of its presentation, for what purposes, etc., are all the requirements are spelled out. There are ten primary laws governing tithing (as identified by Maimonides) and a dozen or more 'minor' instructions.

Now, according to the Law and the biblical instructions identified above, only one group of people were authorized to receive the tithe of the land, i.e., the tribe of Levi - no one else, under any conditions!. And, not all members of the tribe of Levi could eat of the tithes. (Another Hebrew Bible study).

Under these conditions, not even Jesus nor any of the apostles could or would seek or accept a tithe from anyone, especially Gentiles. Neither Jesus or the apostles were Levites. Consequently, they would be breaking the Law if they so engaged. To give or receive tithes outside of the Old Covenant instructions is a direct transgression of the Law and the ordinances governing tithing. After the destruction of the Temple and the disbandment of the priesthood, tithing ceased to be paid or received, because there was no one left in an office authorized to receive tithes.

As a reminder, to transgress the Law is defined in the Bible as 'sin'. 1 John 3:4
Also, everyone is instructed not to diminish from or add to the articles of the Law. ( Deuteronomy 4:2 & 12:32)

Therefore, the only avenue open to a demand for tithes today, is to materially change, alter, and even rewrite the Laws of tithing so as to deliberately misrepresent, misinterpret and/or misapply scripture in order to force a false scriptural support for a now, well defined 'non-biblical requirement'.

There are a lot of technical reasons that can be presented to show that the biblical tithing no longer required, or even permitted according to scripture. But question is, if the scriptures declare the biblical tithing a void ordinance, why bother with all of the technical details? Unless, of course one is tempted to continue in the sin anyway and is looking for a loop hole.

For the $64.00 question.

Is non-biblical tithing a sin? The simple answer is, In and of itself, No. If it is required of you, or if you require it of others, yes.

If a person has purposed in their heart to give any amount (1%, 5% 10%, 90%, etc.) and it is with out compulsion (2 Corinthians 9:6-7), then give it with a glad heart! If one desires to give to the pastor's grocery fund, do so, but you do not own him/her 10% of all of your income, whatever source, for his retirement fund.Give to the church as God has prospered you and as you think appropriate,

Do not deprive your family of the necessities of life in order for the church building to have lights, or to provide the pastor and family to drive his and her's Caddies, while members of the congregation can't get their old Fords running. Priorities. Also see Matthew 23.

Next, what about those ministers who must depend on support from the churches for their ministry and even physical survival?

By tomorrow, at the latest.

[A.W. Bowman]

First, a follow up note.

Tithing as Abraham did is appropriate at any time any place. But, study the tithe Abraham gave, the reason for it's giving, to whom he gave it, and what he did with the remaining spoils of war. Remember that until this point in time there was no legal requirement for paying a tithe from any personal resource. This giving of ten percent was strictly a 'free-will' offering, not a mandated principle. There is no record of anyone else paying a tithe or any other tribute from their share of the spoils.The ordinances governing tithes did not come until over 400 years later.

Jacob: Please review the scriptures. While we can 'assume' Jacob paid God a tithe, there is no record that he ever did! Jacob's promise of paying a future tithe was made as part of a bargain with God. Use that bargain argument today in most churches and see where it gets you. Also, along with this, there is no record of to whom Jacob would have given his tithe to, as a stand in for God.

If one is interest in using Abraham as a biblical example for paying tithes, then tell the tithe collector that the next time you gain some spoils of was that you do not intend to keep any way, you will be happy to give him/her 10 5 - if they can prove that they are of the order of Melchizedek that Jesus is. Now, such a move on your part will most likely not gain you any new friends in high places.