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  #11  
Old 11-05-2010, 01:37 AM
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Adino Adino is offline
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Re: On the right hand of God

Hello MFB. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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If everyone's sins are remitted already, before they're born, then no one has sin and no one needs so much as repent.
This would be true if the sin of 'unbelief' was imputed to Christ on the Cross, but I do not see evidence that it was. Though all sin imputed to Christ was purged on the Cross, there remains the sin of unbelief. I believe unbelief is the blasphemous unforgivable sin referred to by Christ, for to reject the record God gave of His Son is to call God a liar (Matthew 12:31-32; 1John 5:10-13). Therefore, all men need to turn to God in repentance through faith in Jesus Christ in order to "set to his seal that God is true" (John 3:33).

Man also must convert to Christ in repentance in order to have life. By means of his death Christ obtained eternal redemption of our sins, thereby reconciling us to God so that we might receive the promise of eternal inheritance, i.e., so that we might receive life (Hebrews 9:12-15; Romans 5:10). Though, when we were enemies, we were historically reconciled in the eyes of God by the death of His Son, we need to be saved by His life (Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 9:26b; Romans 5:10). Though historically forgiven at Calvary all men remain spiritually dead until they come to Christ for life. He that believes has life (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26) and is no longer condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already because he hasn't believed (John 3:18).

Also note, since I recognize many will be eternally condemned because of unbelief, I should not be considered an advocate of universalism.


Concerning the issue of remission prior to our actual commission of sin:

We sin against an eternal omniscient God who dwells outside of space and time. I would go so far as to say that our sins committed long after the Cross were not only known by God at Calvary but from the very foundation of the world. We are told the Lamb was foreordained and "slain from the foundation of the world" (1Peter 1:19-20; Revelation 13:8) so it is only logical to understand the future sins which demanded the sacrifice would have been known by God as well. Sins before the Cross and after the Cross were imputed to Christ on the Cross.

God considered our sin as Christ's. When Christ, who bore our sin, died he was made free from all sin imputed to him (Romans 6:7). Only once all sin imputed to him had been purged was Christ able to rise from the dead. The resurrection itself is evidence that all sin imputed to Christ had been remitted by God. The resurrection declared the effectiveness of the Cross in regard to the cleansing of our sin. The Good News of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is not that he made provision for forgiveness subsequent to the Cross, but that all sins imputed to him were indeed historically forgiven. Only then could Christ take his place on the right hand of God (Hebrews 1:3).

Whether we accept or reject the historic remission of the Cross has absolutely no bearing on its historicity. Our actions have no affect on God's finished work of grace in Jesus Christ. Whether we come to Christ in repentance for life or remain spiritually dead and condemned in unbelief does not change the reality of God's forgiveness on the Cross. The only thing changing after the Cross in regard to God's forgiveness is our coming to terms with its reality. There was a remission of sins historically enacted on the Cross which we are to presently experience and/or 'receive' by faith.

I think the following illustration is in order:
Consider the son who sins against his father and moves far away. In his dying moments the father makes it known to all that he has forgiven his estranged son. Years later the son comes to acknowledge his sin against his father and returns home only to find that his father has passed. He is devastated and his conscience of sin is tearing his soul apart.

Has the father forgiven the son? YES, the father's 'work of forgiveness' is complete. 'It is finished.'

Has the son experienced and/or received his father's forgiveness? NOT YET

Devastated and yearning for a healing of his heart the son finally learns that his father forgave him many years earlier and had never ceased loving him.

Upon hearing the 'good news' of his father's forgiveness and reconciliation the son chooses to place his trust in its reality. This results in a healing of his soul and a cleansing of his conscience of sin. The son moves forward attempting to live a life which would have been pleasing to his loving father.

How long had the son been forgiven? Ever since his father forgave him.

Though forgiven for many years, had the son experienced his father's forgiveness? NO, he did not experience the forgiveness of his father until he learned of it and came to rest in the reality of the historic forgiveness. The word of his father's reconciliation brought healing and a purging of conscience just as the word of our Father's reconciliation brings healing and a purging of our conscience of sin (2Corinthians 5:18-19). Our conscience of sin is made perfect / purged / purified by faith in the finished work of the Cross (Hebrews 9:9; Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 10:2; Hebrews 10:22; Acts 15:9).
Though God's conscience of our sin was appeased historically on the Cross, our personal conscience of sin can only be purged when we come to learn of the work of the Cross through the hearing of the Gospel. The forgiveness God enacted 2000 years ago is experienced by us today when we hear and accept by faith the Good News of His historic forgiveness.

I would like to hear some thoughts on when you guys feel our sins were/are imputed to Christ.

Thanks.
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  #12  
Old 11-07-2010, 12:54 PM
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Re: On the right hand of God

In my earlier post I said I would like to hear thoughts on when you guys feel our sins were/are imputed to Christ. When does God no longer impute to us our sins?

This is an extremely important question when you realize it is theologically impossible for a man to be spiritually alive while sin is yet imputed to him. With the imputation of sin is the acquisition of its penalty. Since the penalty of sin is death, it is not possible to possess spiritual life until sin is no longer imputed. It is a theological contradiction to think one can have the Spirit of Life before the cause of spiritual death has been remitted.

This is one reason the account of Cornelius in Acts 10 deals a death blow to the baptismal sin remission and water/spirit new birth doctrines. Cornelius had to be freed from ALL sin before he could be resurrected to new spiritual life. If God could grant life without first dealing with a man's sins, then there would be no need for the Cross. Since Cornelius displayed evidence that God had granted him spiritual life (Acts 11:18) it is apparent he was fully justified in the eyes of God before any mention of water baptism. His heart had been 'purified by faith' (Acts 15:9) and his spiritually dead soul had been quickened/resurrected to new life.

Sin remission must precede resurrection which, again, is why Christ's resurrection declared a finished work of remission of all things imputed to him on Calvary. When Christ said, "It is finished".... he meant it.

Question: When does God no longer impute to us the sins He imputed to Christ on the Cross?
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  #13  
Old 11-07-2010, 05:24 PM
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Re: On the right hand of God

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  #14  
Old 11-07-2010, 05:26 PM
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Re: On the right hand of God

Hoping for a response, because I am loving this discussion.
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  #15  
Old 11-07-2010, 05:28 PM
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Re: On the right hand of God

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adino View Post
In my earlier post I said I would like to hear thoughts on when you guys feel our sins were/are imputed to Christ. When does God no longer impute to us our sins?

This is an extremely important question when you realize it is theologically impossible for a man to be spiritually alive while sin is yet imputed to him. With the imputation of sin is the acquisition of its penalty. Since the penalty of sin is death, it is not possible to possess spiritual life until sin is no longer imputed. It is a theological contradiction to think one can have the Spirit of Life before the cause of spiritual death has been remitted.

This is one reason the account of Cornelius in Acts 10 deals a death blow to the baptismal sin remission and water/spirit new birth doctrines. Cornelius had to be freed from ALL sin before he could be resurrected to new spiritual life. If God could grant life without first dealing with a man's sins, then there would be no need for the Cross. Since Cornelius displayed evidence that God had granted him spiritual life (Acts 11:18) it is apparent he was fully justified in the eyes of God before any mention of water baptism. His heart had been 'purified by faith' (Acts 15:9) and his spiritually dead soul had been quickened/resurrected to new life.

Sin remission must precede resurrection which, again, is why Christ's resurrection declared a finished work of remission of all things imputed to him on Calvary. When Christ said, "It is finished".... he meant it.

Question: When does God no longer impute to us the sins He imputed to Christ on the Cross?
Yes, sir.
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  #16  
Old 11-08-2010, 10:34 AM
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Re: On the right hand of God

Question 1: When does God no longer impute to us the sins He imputed to Christ on the Cross?

Question 2: Can a man possess the Spirit of Life while condemned by imputed sin?
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  #17  
Old 11-08-2010, 10:55 AM
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Re: On the right hand of God

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Question 2: Can a man possess the Spirit of Life while condemned by imputed sin?
The million dollar question
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  #18  
Old 11-08-2010, 02:05 PM
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Re: On the right hand of God

Question 3: Do the correct answers to my first two questions render the baptismal sin remission and water/spirit new birth doctrines untenable?
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  #19  
Old 11-08-2010, 03:02 PM
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Re: On the right hand of God

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To use your words...

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Originally Posted by Adino
Haven't forgot about you, guys.... busy week. I'll try to get back with a response later
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  #20  
Old 11-08-2010, 05:13 PM
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Re: On the right hand of God

No problem, Bro. In fact, you might have the last word for a little while. Depends on how the rest of the week goes. I'm back to my regular schedule in the morning.

I would like to hear your thoughts on imputation. Were our sins imputed to Christ on the Cross? Were they still imputed to him when he was resurrected? Can they be imputed to him after his resurrection without demanding another sacrifice?

And of course, is it possible to be risen spiritually without first having the cause of death remitted from our account by God?

Full plate, I know..... God bless
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