Leadership in the home and church

[Godsdrummer]

First let me say thank you for staying with this, you are gracious to do so. Next I want to say I do beleive in pastors on the proper context and in their place. What I don't beleive is the way we have made the ministry (all the ministry) into a higher class of people. This is a trend I beleive we have kept from RC influance, when the bible was chained to the pulpit and the common people were not incouraged or alowed to read and study as they were told the church was given the authority to translate and then pass down to the layity.

As you have shown that God did give people pastors, what I am still not seeing is how the word instructs us that pastors or any ministry were placed in the position they now hold. We quote Ephesians 4:11-12, and Hebrews 13:17 to try and back up the idea of the ministry being over the church. But I have found with careful study that these passages when taken in context and proper meaning of the word "obey" do not give the authority taken by those in ministerial authority today.

Again I see the example in OT as to how these gifts are to be used in the kingdom of God today. In the simple way that they were used in OT. I can find most if not all of what we call the five fold ministry in OT examples. What I can't find is examples of the way man has set himself above others in the body of Christ just by the exclamation that he has been called of God to said postion.

Any comments on this.

[stephenroehm]

Thank you for the kind words. This is the reason that I joined this forum - to have Scriptural dialogue with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

As for the last post, I think I agree with everything you stated. Pastors are people who the LORD has chosen to feed His sheep, but I see more people twist it to elevate pastors and bishops (and other positions in the church) to a "holier than thou" status, oftentimes to make themselves feel more significant to the other members of the congregation. While pastors should be respected, is it biblical to respect them or hold them in higher regard than any other person in the body? Should they be given special favor and treatment by members of the congregation? Should they be free from accountability? On all these questions, my answer, and I believe the Bible agrees, is no.

The Bible instructs us to not be respectors of persons. Jesus, during His time in the flesh, chastised the Pharisees for the exact thing we're talking about. Especially as more and more leaders within the church are giving themselves over to perverted doctrines such as the "Prosperity Gospel", they look more like the Pharisicidal leaders of Bible times whose boast was in material possessions and the most prestigious seats at public gatherings than shepherds who have put off the old man and have been transformed into the image of Him who created them.

That being said, I pray every day that the LORD would raise up pastors according to His heart, seeking His face, and giving themselves wholly to His word and will. Just because it may seem at times like the majority of leaders are corrupt or at least not what the Bible calls them to be, there's no need to take Elijah's approach and assume that none are in God's will. No matter what we see, there is ALWAYS a remnant of people who are wholly devoted and committed to the LORD. Those are the one's who I believe the Bible instructs to "Give honor where honor is due".

I have a friend who puts it like this, "A Pastor is not an office within the church, it is a gift that the LORD gives to different parts of the body to accomplish a part of His will. It's not that one person is greater than another, that a Pastor is greater than an usher or soundman or drummer, or that the gift of pastoralship is greater than any other gift. Rather, the gift and person who possesses it is no greater than the flock he has been given stewardship over and is still mandated to apply the scripture that instructs us to esteem others higher than we esteem ourselves." I agree with him and try to live by this as I am an Assistant Pastor in my congregation.

[Godsdrummer]

stephenroehm Thank you for the kind words. This is the reason that I joined this forum - to have Scriptural dialogue with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

I too joined to have dialogue with brothers and sisters of he faith, I also use it to sound off on thoughts I have studied in the last few years after leaving UPCI. As we attend at various places right now for some fellowship I have a dream of a house church ministry that is not like anything I have seen in reacent past.

As for the last post, I think I agree with everything you stated. Pastors are people who the LORD has chosen to feed His sheep, but I see more people twist it to elevate pastors and bishops (and other positions in the church) to a "holier than thou" status, oftentimes to make themselves feel more significant to the other members of the congregation. While pastors should be respected, is it biblical to respect them or hold them in higher regard than any other person in the body? Should they be given special favor and treatment by members of the congregation? Should they be free from accountability? On all these questions, my answer, and I believe the Bible agrees, is no.

Now you are understanding some of where I am leading, as Jesus taught his diciples when they wanted to know who would be greatest in the kingdom. He said they should all serve each other that there was not a greater or lesser.

The Bible instructs us to not be respectors of persons. Jesus, during His time in the flesh, chastised the Pharisees for the exact thing we're talking about. Especially as more and more leaders within the church are giving themselves over to perverted doctrines such as the "Prosperity Gospel", they look more like the Pharisicidal leaders of Bible times whose boast was in material possessions and the most prestigious seats at public gatherings than shepherds who have put off the old man and have been transformed into the image of Him who created them.

This was something I saw in many in the 20 years I was a minister in and around the UPCI. While I had the privalage of working with some great mean of God there were others that were so full of themselves they would have been better.... well lets just leave it at that.

That being said, I pray every day that the LORD would raise up pastors according to His heart, seeking His face, and giving themselves wholly to His word and will. Just because it may seem at times like the majority of leaders are corrupt or at least not what the Bible calls them to be, there's no need to take Elijah's approach and assume that none are in God's will. No matter what we see, there is ALWAYS a remnant of people who are wholly devoted and committed to the LORD. Those are the one's who I believe the Bible instructs to "Give honor where honor is due".

As I know that the majority of leaders have the right heart, they are lead and or dictated to by the guidance they have received, which in my mind is based on man traditions and not true understanding of the mind and intent of God. Not saying I am an authority, but I do feel God has given me an insight and understanding of how he intended his kingdom to function. After all it is his kingdom not ours.

I have a friend who puts it like this, "A Pastor is not an office within the church, it is a gift that the LORD gives to different parts of the body to accomplish a part of His will. It's not that one person is greater than another, that a Pastor is greater than an usher or soundman or drummer, or that the gift of pastoralship is greater than any other gift. Rather, the gift and person who possesses it is no greater than the flock he has been given stewardship over and is still mandated to apply the scripture that instructs us to esteem others higher than we esteem ourselves." I agree with him and try to live by this as I am an Assistant Pastor in my congregation.

I like your friend, as I have stated the same thing not long ago. I learned a long time ago the ministry is not platform, actualy I was told that platform ministry was only about 1/4 of the ministry. But I have since come to feel that the platform is nothing of what God ment of the ministry. But that is a different tangent of where I feel God showing me.

[Sandy]

I may be wrong about what I am going to say. But some years back, while discussing some issues concerning the ministry gifts, I began to wonder if the category the evangelists, pastors and techers would come under what Paul wrote about them in 1st Tim. chapter 3, their being those that were originally referred to as the deacons that were appointed by the apostles to go and wait tables, Meaning they were to help in ministering to the people in these offices, under the direction of the Apostles and prophets of the day of course. And the apostle would be classified as the shepherd under Jesus Christ of course, who is our true shepherd always.

But today the pastors have taken the place of the apostles and sometimes the prophets.

But this is only within the confines of the church itself. The home is a different story there. The husband being the head of that house, no matter who comes into it IMO.

Also, it is entirely possible why you seldom do see the phrase pastor to begin with. As for the Greek meaning of what is in Jeremiah. I have not yet checked that out and should. Kind of odd, that they seem to be the ones causing the most trouble though. Not all of course, but many.

But what I did to come to this conclusion was to check out what the bible did have to say about deacons, along with looking up the meaning of this in the Greek. And that was like several years ago that I did this. Doing so because of having a conversation on another forum back then. Along with looking at what those that were deacons did to begin with. coming to the conclusion that they definitely were the evangelists then because of what they did do. And therefore, could also have been the pastors and teachers too, once the church did begin to grow.

Just tossing this out, for what it is worth, for you to take a look at if you want. As there was not a lot of scriptures that proved what I am saying. Just seemed reasonable because of what did happen concerning them written in the book of Acts and elsewhere that did speak of this subject in the NT.

[fl4christ]

It's kind of along the same lines of what happened to Israel when they wanted a king after other nations, when they actually had the best king there was. GOD warned them what would happen. I never have understood it because I think that if I were alive back then and some nation pointed out some guy who was head and shoulders above the rest and how awesome this king of theirs was, and I pointed to the sky and told them "see that cloud pillar up there, that's my king." "And if you think HE looks awesome in the day, come visit us at night.". But that's just me.

Brother you ask the question "why?" or "how has this come to be?". I believe it is because the majority of the people want someone between them and GOD, making intercession and things because they do not want to have that personal relationship that with HIM that HE wants to have with them.

It started on Mt Horeb, when GOD came down to establish that personal relationship with them, rejected HIM out of fear and told Moses that they didn't want GOD to speak directly to them like that anymore, but have HIM speak to you(Moses) and you can relay the Messages to us. Believe it or not that is what Stephen was referring to when he was chastising the people and they got mad at him. What did he tell them - "You resist the HolyGhost just as your fathers did...". When Moses told Pharoah to let his people go, what was it for? So they could go and WORSHIP. Nothing about receiving a bunch of laws and commandments.

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Wow why is it that everyone thinks I have been hurt before "by organizational politics and more specifically, a pastor/member of leadership"?
I have been in what most concider the ministry since my early twenties. Pastored, assitant pastored, Church school principle, started a Home missions work, intrim pastor, Youth pastor, youth camp counseler, Sunday school teacher, Bus ministry, worship leader and finaly assosiate minister. All before I left UPCI, these questions are not before I left UPCI but after I left, from study that some things are not what they seem at first glance. Too many of the doctrines of Christianity today are based on mans traditions and not sound study of the word of God. And that is not just my personal opinion.



I agree even God commanded the Israelites to come together several times a year, ie the feast days. They were to come to a centeral place chosen by God for these times. In time Jerusalem becoming the holy city for these times. And as parents we are not just missing a God given blessing, we are disobeying a direct command of God if we don't teach our children the things of God.



This is where we separate ideas, it is helpful to have others who truly seek and spend time with God and the word. As we are all to seek out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We are exhorted to assemble together for several reasons, the gifts of the spirit cannot work unless two or three are assembled together to exhort, edify and comfort, we need to share with one another those things that God has shown us in his word, as to keep ouselves from false doctrine, Yes iron sharpens iron.


So now that we have established that maybe you can answer the questions ask in the previous post.
How did they have pastors in bible days? Where did they go to church, (if in fact they did) How did the prophets and priest teach the statutes of the law and when?

Funny thing only one time does scripture use the word pastor in NT yet pastor has become the primary minister in the church today. Also Pastor is interchangable with shepherd and even the best pastor I have been privaliged to know and assosiate with does not completely aline with what a true shepherd is and does.

A good book on this is "Your Pastor Your Shepherd" by James Lee Beall

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by fl4christ

It's kind of along the same lines of what happened to Israel when they wanted a king after other nations, when they actually had the best king there was. GOD warned them what would happen. I never have understood it because I think that if I were alive back then and some nation pointed out some guy who was head and shoulders above the rest and how awesome this king of theirs was, and I pointed to the sky and told them "see that cloud pillar up there, that's my king." "And if you think HE looks awesome in the day, come visit us at night.". But that's just me.

Brother you ask the question "why?" or "how has this come to be?". I believe it is because the majority of the people want someone between them and GOD, making intercession and things because they do not want to have that personal relationship that with HIM that HE wants to have with them.

It started on Mt Horeb, when GOD came down to establish that personal relationship with them, rejected HIM out of fear and told Moses that they didn't want GOD to speak directly to them like that anymore, but have HIM speak to you(Moses) and you can relay the Messages to us. Believe it or not that is what Stephen was referring to when he was chastising the people and they got mad at him. What did he tell them - "You resist the HolyGhost just as your fathers did...". When Moses told Pharoah to let his people go, what was it for? So they could go and WORSHIP. Nothing about receiving a bunch of laws and commandments.

Ah how right you are, is'nt it wonderful what you see when you look at the word in a different light than how we have been taught.

When Moses told Pharoah to let his people go, what was it for? So they could go and WORSHIP. Nothing about receiving a bunch of laws and commandments

As Paul taught the law was given because of transgrestion Just athought, I was allways told we needed pastors, (the ministry) to keep the church in line with Gods word. I was told we were evil from birth until we were saved. This would seem to change the meaning around we are good until we transgres against God then we need his law.

Think about that one till you see all the implications that come with that thought.

[Godsdrummer]

Sandy;984653]I may be wrong about what I am going to say. But some years back, while discussing some issues concerning the ministry gifts, I began to wonder if the category the evangelists, pastors and techers would come under what Paul wrote about them in 1st Tim. chapter 3, their being those that were originally referred to as the deacons that were appointed by the apostles to go and wait tables, Meaning they were to help in ministering to the people in these offices, under the direction of the Apostles and prophets of the day of course. And the apostle would be classified as the shepherd under Jesus Christ of course, who is our true shepherd always.

Sandy JMHO but this has become the common idea over the years that the ministry gifts were the decons etc. There is a great problem with this. No where is are the gifts of ministry ordainded by man, they are given by God, not ordainded by man. As Paul states "God gave... " Decons and elders were chosen by those in the church, for their good examples and lives they lived.

But today the pastors have taken the place of the apostles and sometimes the prophets.

But this is only within the confines of the church itself. The home is a different story there. The husband being the head of that house, no matter who comes into it IMO.

I have to laugh, Im sorry, the husband is the head of the house? Under who's authority? Does he not bring home the teachings of the church the family attends? What if he does not see ar agree with some teaching from the pastor?

Also, it is entirely possible why you seldom do see the phrase pastor to begin with. As for the Greek meaning of what is in Jeremiah. I have not yet checked that out and should. Kind of odd, that they seem to be the ones causing the most trouble though. Not all of course, but many.

But what I did to come to this conclusion was to check out what the bible did have to say about deacons, along with looking up the meaning of this in the Greek. And that was like several years ago that I did this. Doing so because of having a conversation on another forum back then. Along with looking at what those that were deacons did to begin with. coming to the conclusion that they definitely were the evangelists then because of what they did do. And therefore, could also have been the pastors and teachers too, once the church did begin to grow.

Just tossing this out, for what it is worth, for you to take a look at if you want. As there was not a lot of scriptures that proved what I am saying. Just seemed reasonable because of what did happen concerning them written in the book of Acts and elsewhere that did speak of this subject in the NT.

Sandy never rely on what you study years ago, always recheck I have found that things are different each time I look at a subject. Here is something to check it is easy if you have a Strongs look at the definitions, for pastors, decons, and elders, and bishops, These cannot be compared to the gifts of spirit. These are men chosen for administrative duties in the church. NOT interpreting scripture or teaching, spiritual things. When the body came together it ismy opinion, that as they prayed and worshiped together, they would begin to read and study together as the need arose the ministy gift would come forth from God to edify, and equip the body, to do the work of ministy outside the group.

[Sandy]

Thanks I will do that.

But I do totally agree also with what fl4christ said in the above post.

My point was mainly to say the pastor was never called to be the head of the church at all.

Plus, my husband does not take the word of the church at all without studying it out and praying and seeking God about issues either, Drummer.

Nor does that mean the husband, as that head, always has the correct answers. Nor is he called to lord it over all in that household either of course. But as that head, he has responsibilities to see that his children as well as his wife, follow Jesus Christ, even more than I do. But not everyone is the chief in the tribe either, nobody being an Indian, if you know what I do mean. LOL

See, I have the idea that good ole Adam sat there and let his wife partake of that fruit, not saying a doggone thing. When he should have done something to stop her Drummer. Because God told him personally not to partake of that fruit. And never says God told Eve. Yet Even had to have had someone tell her not to do so. My figuring that had to have been Adam. OK? Yet he let her go ahead, knowing better didn't he? Probably because by that time he wanted a bite himself. so he figured that if Eve didn't keel over dead after doing so, he would have some too. Which he did do. although he didn't bank on the fact that God never said they would die instantly either. He just told them they would surely die. And they did die spiritually on that day too. And not only that, but reproduced the curse within all of mankind that was born thereafter as well.

Meaning sometimes it is wise to listen to your husband after all. But then again, sometimes it would be wise to let him try it out first instead. LOL

But yes, I will study that out again, as soon as I do get the time. As IMHO that isn't the most important thing for me to do right now at all. Since I also follow my husband, not paying attention to everything someone says with a title, one even of pastor, anymore either. And knowing about what the first husband did also, I check him out all the time too. LOL

[stephenroehm]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

I have to laugh, Im sorry, the husband is the head of the house? Under who's authority? Does he not bring home the teachings of the church the family attends? What if he does not see ar agree with some teaching from the pastor?

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

If you don't think the husband is the head of the house, what do you think the above scripture means and who is the head of the house?

While God does set teachers in the church and some are given the gifts of pastoralship and teaching together, it is still up to us to read God's word and pray for an impartation of wisdom and understanding of His word. When Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom after he claimed Jesus was the Son of God, Jesus said to him, "Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but your Father who is in Heaven". This, with no prophecy of scripture being of private interpretation tells me that God alone reveals the wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and mysteries of His word. There are times where he uses another person to teach us, but it's still the Spirit that opens our eyes, unstops our ears, and gives us a heart to understand.

This is not to say that we shouldn't listen to whomever God sets in the church to teach. It is to say that when God gives a person a revelation of His word and that person teaches it in truth, the LORD will guide that word to those who are "spiritually receptive" and righteousness will be revealed from one person's faith to another's. However, there are times where those who teach in churches are doing it for a number of impure reasons. No matter what the situation, though, it is up to every child of God to rightly divide the Word through prayer, fasting, and study.

[Sandy]

Originally Posted by stephenroehm

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

If you don't think the husband is the head of the house, what do you think the above scripture means and who is the head of the house?

Thank you. I forgot about that scripture.

But it is still up to us as an individual to find out the truth for ourselves too. Because God talks to me just as much as He talks to Al. We compliment one another. But I have also learned the hard way to consider the old wise one when he do speaketh some godly wisdom anymore too.

But none the less, it is also very true, it isn't as though Eve could not have gone and asked God herself, before partaking of that fruit.