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  #11  
Old 10-20-2010, 01:26 PM
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MrMasterMind MrMasterMind is offline
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Re: Gays In the Church

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Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind View Post
There is a pentecostal church organization here in Puerto Rico that was sued and lost a multimillion dollar lawsuit for firing a homosexual man. Now there are 2 or 3 pastors with homosexual tendencies and the church can't do anything to them but let them be.

I don't understand all of the details or legalities of the case, but how can homosexuals stay in church positions? Can anyone explain the legal rights of gays in church employment? I thought the church had rights but I may be wrong.
Firing someone from an employment position and taking away someone's license are two totally seperate things.
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  #12  
Old 10-20-2010, 03:17 PM
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Sam Sam is offline
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Re: Gays In the Church

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Originally Posted by El Predicador View Post
Because it has to do with spiritual hair

Speaking of which, looking at your new avatar aren't you about ready for a tirm young man?
I've explained that Avatar.
It's not my real hair.
A couple of years ago we were in a Halloween store getting costumes for some grand kids. I saw that hat with the hair and tried it on and someone got a picture. I think I used it as an Avatar before.

Besides, that hair is much shorter than someone who might be taking a Nazarite vow over an extended period of time.
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  #13  
Old 10-20-2010, 03:21 PM
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Sam Sam is offline
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Re: Gays In the Church

an article which I've posted before:

God's Ocean of Grace
Luis Palau
Thank God His grace isn't fair.

Nearly two years ago, one of my nephews (I'll call him Kenneth) was near death. He had AIDS. During a family reunion in the hills of northern California, Kenneth and I broke away for a short walk. He was a hollow shell, laboring for breath.

"Kenneth, you know you're going to die any day," I said. "Do you have eternal life? Your parents agonize. I must know."

"Luis, I know God has forgiven me and I'm going to heaven."

For several years, since his early teens, Kenneth had practiced homosexuality. More than that, in rebellion against God and his parents, he flaunted his lifestyle.

"Kenneth, how can you say that?" I replied. "You rebelled against God, you made fun of the Bible, you hurt your family terribly. And now you say you've got eternal life, just like that?"

"Luis, when the doctor said I had AIDS, I realized what a fool I'd been."

"We know that," I said bluntly but deliberately, because Kenneth knew full well what Romans 1 teaches. "But did you really repent?"

"I did repent, and I know God has had mercy on me. But my dad won't believe me."

"With good reason," I said. "You've rebelled in his face all your life. You've broken his heart."

Kenneth looked me straight in the eye. "I know the Lord has forgiven me."

"Did you open your heart to Jesus?"

"Yes, Luis! Yes!"

As we put our arms around each other and prayed and talked some more, I became convinced that Jesus had forgiven all of Kenneth's rebellion and washed away all his sin. Several short months later, he went to be with the Lord at age 25.

My nephew, like the repentant thief on the cross, did not deserve God's grace. I didn't either. None of us do. That's why grace is grace--unmerited favor.

But it goes against all sense of "fairness" that Kenneth could enter heaven and forever enjoy its holy glory after living all but a few months of his young adult life in open spiritual rebellion. Fairness requires that heaven be reserved only for people like his mom and dad, who by faith have lived in service to God for 30 years and plan to serve Him, as God enables, for 30 or 40 more.

Fairness requires that heaven be home for John the beloved apostle--who obediently cared for Mary the mother of Jesus after the Lord's death and who endured persecution and exile in Jesus' name--not for a thief who repents two or three hours before his death.

But the words of Jesus leave no doubt: "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Feel the authority? With the power that upholds the universe, Jesus assures a dying man--a legally convicted, admitted criminal--of eternal life. As it does today, assurance of salvation rested in the unbreakable promise of God--God's trustworthiness, not man's fickleness--founded on the Savior's substitutionary work on the cross.

Moments earlier, this thief was among the many who taunted the Savior as He hung on the cross:

"You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself!"

"Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!"

"He saved others, but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel!"

"Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him."

"He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him...."

Then Matthew adds, "In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him" (Matthew 27:39- 44).

How can this man be among the worshiping multitude in heaven, singing, "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" (Rev. 5:12)?

Only by grace.

I've sometimes found it hard to be kind and patient with someone who has openly, purposefully, and recklessly broken a basic command of God and then is suffering the consequences. Until Kenneth put a human face on AIDS and homosexual sin, it was with trepidation--never too loud--that I'd say, "God loves homosexuals."

My nephew has made me more tender, and more bold, in discussing God's forgiveness with anyone who has committed blatant sin, whatever it may be, if that person truly repents.

Still, it doesn't come easy. In churches across America, I enter the danger zone when I say with conviction, "God loves homosexuals. Amen?"

There aren't many amens. Stone faces shout by their silence, "That isn't fair!"

Neither is grace.

God is like the owner of the vineyard who paid the same wage to workers who labored only one hour as he did to those who labored all day (Matt. 20:1-16). "You have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day," they complained. Wouldn't you?

Replied the landowner, "Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?"

God's grace is generosity extraordinario, love without limits. In those agonizing moments of Grace lifted up from the earth, a criminal repented of unbelief, rebellion, and insults. Before the day ended, he joined Jesus in paradise.

Though it wouldn't be fair, having squandered so much, prodigal America has never needed grace more. Kenneth and a thief without a name send the same message: There's no bottom to God's ocean of grace.
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  #14  
Old 10-20-2010, 03:33 PM
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Jack Shephard Jack Shephard is offline
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Re: Gays In the Church

Do you all think there is a place in the church for homosexuals?
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  #15  
Old 10-20-2010, 03:41 PM
deadeye deadeye is offline
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Re: Gays In the Church

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Originally Posted by JTULLOCK View Post
Do you all think there is a place in the church for homosexuals?
Absolutely...at the altar of repentance.
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  #16  
Old 10-20-2010, 03:45 PM
Jeffrey Jeffrey is offline
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Re: Gays In the Church

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Originally Posted by JTULLOCK View Post
Do you all think there is a place in the church for homosexuals?
Many places for them. "Come and See!" And even Discipleship. But when it comes to maturing and leading, living dead is not an option.
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  #17  
Old 10-20-2010, 03:57 PM
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Jack Shephard Jack Shephard is offline
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Re: Gays In the Church

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Originally Posted by deadeye View Post
Absolutely...at the altar of repentance.
That is not what I meant. I also wasn't meaning a place for them in leadership either. Since this sin is no different that any other sin, except in the eyes of saints and republicans, should they be able to attend church freely? IMO, I say yes, but with the condition that they don't practice the sin. www.realityla.com has people like this. I mean it is no different that an adultress or adulter attending church if they stop their "adulting". Again this is my opinion. It is a sin, no doubt, but only the church and republicans view it as perverse. While it is still sin it is as perverse as somethings that some straight couples do, but since the Bible classifies it as a sin it is viewed differently. Why is there a seperation in the minds of some many?
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  #18  
Old 10-20-2010, 03:58 PM
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Jack Shephard Jack Shephard is offline
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Re: Gays In the Church

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey View Post
Many places for them. "Come and See!" And even Discipleship. But when it comes to maturing and leading, living dead is not an option.
I feel ya. Anyone can be reformed, God forgetting their past, but man never will. So there will be some people that no matter the rehab someone has gone through some people will NEVER let someone like this attend or even help out as they progress.
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  #19  
Old 10-20-2010, 04:33 PM
deadeye deadeye is offline
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Re: Gays In the Church

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Originally Posted by JTULLOCK View Post
That is not what I meant. I also wasn't meaning a place for them in leadership either. Since this sin is no different that any other sin, except in the eyes of saints and republicans, should they be able to attend church freely? IMO, I say yes, but with the condition that they don't practice the sin. www.realityla.com has people like this. I mean it is no different that an adultress or adulter attending church if they stop their "adulting". Again this is my opinion. It is a sin, no doubt, but only the church and republicans view it as perverse. While it is still sin it is as perverse as somethings that some straight couples do, but since the Bible classifies it as a sin it is viewed differently. Why is there a seperation in the minds of some many?

If they stop their "adulting"...and repent they are no longer an adulterer or adulteress.

If a homosexual repents and stops doing homosexual actions....they are no longer a homosexual.

They may struggle with the feelings and temptations, but in Gods eyes they are forgiven and no longer a homosexual.

Homosexuality is a sin
Lying is a sin
Adultry is a sin
Gambling, drug abuse, stealing, etc....are all sins...however when we repent and stop doing those things...we in Gods eyes are no longer a addict, alcoholic, homosexual, fornicator, lyer, thief...whatever...we are washed and forgiven.
Society may view us as what we once were....we may still struggle with those things....but in Gods economy we are blood washed Saints of the Most High.
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  #20  
Old 10-20-2010, 04:48 PM
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Jack Shephard Jack Shephard is offline
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Re: Gays In the Church

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Originally Posted by deadeye View Post
If they stop their "adulting"...and repent they are no longer an adulterer or adulteress.

If a homosexual repents and stops doing homosexual actions....they are no longer a homosexual.

They may struggle with the feelings and temptations, but in Gods eyes they are forgiven and no longer a homosexual.

Homosexuality is a sin
Lying is a sin
Adultry is a sin
Gambling, drug abuse, stealing, etc....are all sins...however when we repent and stop doing those things...we in Gods eyes are no longer a addict, alcoholic, homosexual, fornicator, lyer, thief...whatever...we are washed and forgiven.
Society may view us as what we once were....we may still struggle with those things....but in Gods economy we are blood washed Saints of the Most High.
I agree with everything you just said, except gambling. Gambling can be a sin when it takes away from food for the family, etc. Otherwise it is not a sin. I gamble every now and again when I go to Laughlin, but it might be $100 bucks max and generally it was a gift to me so I could actually play. I always come home a winner. In fact I went once on a paid for trip, paid by someone else. I was given $100 to spend or gamble. I didn't have the money to pay rent so I wasn't going to play at all. My wife and I went to play penny slots. About 4 dollars into a $20 bill I hit for over 1 grand, cashed out and was done. Paid my rent too. I never lose more than what I budget whether it is $5 bucks or $100.
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