This is good, Hoovie, but it's still confusing. If it's confusing for me, I totally understand how it can be confusing for those who've never been taught "oneness". It still sounds like two beings.
I guess the part that makes me go "hmmmm" is that it sounds like they have two different thought patterns, which I don't believe they do. It sounds like Jesus is thinking one thing and trying to persuade the Father (God) to think like Him. I know that is convoluted, but that's how this scripture sounds.
I just don't think we'll ever understand the godhead, so maybe I should quit trying and just love the Lord and live for Him.
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The man Christ Jesus did think differently from the Father at least one time.
[39] And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
[40] And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
[41] Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
[42] He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. Matt. 26:39-42
Messiah seemed to be capable of independent thought. Yet he prayed through and always did the Fathers will and not his own.
To me this does nothing to hurt Oneness doctrine. It simply demonstrates that in his humanity he was dependant upon the Father both for direction and for power to obey.
uh pretty simple... God had a actual Son in whom that Son realized the very authentic expression of God's nature in him in that they where one. Yet he grew in knowledge and obedience by what he experienced. God HAS A SON and the very source of the SONS deity is that of the divine indwelling that is part of his nature. He learns and thirsts yet he gives everlasting truth and living water. That they may be one as we are one. In the end when we are glorified this will be complete!
Last edited by TheLegalist; 07-15-2010 at 09:47 AM.
This is good, Hoovie, but it's still confusing. If it's confusing for me, I totally understand how it can be confusing for those who've never been taught "oneness". It still sounds like two beings.
I guess the part that makes me go "hmmmm" is that it sounds like they have two different thought patterns, which I don't believe they do. It sounds like Jesus is thinking one thing and trying to persuade the Father (God) to think like Him. I know that is convoluted, but that's how this scripture sounds.
I just don't think we'll ever understand the godhead, so maybe I should quit trying and just love the Lord and live for Him.
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The Son Jesus, while being God, had the added benefit (or willing limitation) brought about by his genuine humanity therefore his speech and prayers reflect the same.
"Beings" and "persons" have to be specifically and narrowly defined before they apply to the Godhead at all.
I would rather just say Christ, though He was God, willingly took upon Himself the limitations of humanity to be our kinsman redeemer. The Father in heaven was simply God beyond those limitations.
Not sure that I agree that it is confusing, but the entire concept of the incarnation is somewhat incomprehensible. God reconciling the world unto Himself through a cross... I am glad he did!
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
I'm a simple man. In my mind I see the Father as the one and only Almighty God. I believe that this God took his Word (thought, plan, idea, expression) and made it flesh and blood. That plan of God was Jesus. Jesus was the Son of God, an authentic human being in every way. Distinct from the Father as to his full humanity. However, the Son (the man Jesus Christ) is united with the Father in an unexplainable and inseparable spiritual Oneness so that each nature is shared. Hence the Father, through Christ partakes of the human nature. And the Son, through the indwelling divinity of the Father, partakes in the divine nature. The very person of Christ Jesus is a reflection of the very person of the Father in human flesh. Thus in Christ Jesus, only one "person" is revealed; the Father.
Just want to, like Sherri, ask some questions and interact as well.
You obviously interpret John 1 in the traditional Oneness way. You read that the Logos is the "thought, plan, idea, expression." But when you say he "made his thought, idea, expression flesh" I wince. Jesus was "begotten of the Father." GOD "sent" His Son. The way most Oneness describe John 1, it's no wonder people believe in Divine flesh to me. And John 1:2 complicates things by referring to the logos with a personal pronoun, "He." How can a thought, expression, concept or idea now be a personal pronoun? And this Logos, according to John 1, participated in Creation according to the next verse.
"However, the Son (the man Jesus Christ) is united with the Father in an unexplainable and inseparable spiritual Oneness so that each nature is shared." I absolutely agree!
In fact, the second half of your writing went from Oneness handling of John 1 into what could very accurately be written by a Trinitarian in the second half. I think that's how close we are.
uh pretty simple... God had a actual Son in whom that Son realized the very authentic expression of God's nature in him in that they where one. Yet he grew in knowledge and obedience by what he experienced. God HAS A SON and the very source of the SONS deity is that of the divine indwelling that is part of his nature. He learns and thirsts yet he gives everlasting truth and living water. That they may be one as we are one. In the end when we are glorified this will be complete!
Nothing you said after "pretty simple" was pretty simple.
The Son is the man in whom God is incarnate. The man Jesus Christ is the human tabernacle of the Father.
If the Son is God incarnate, then the Son is God. Sherri is wondering how God (incarnated as the Son) can be the mediator between Himself and man. Normally, a mediator is not one of the two parties in mediation!
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Nothing you said after "pretty simple" was pretty simple.
Just an FYI.
I don't see it as difficult to understand. Think of you being one with God in which you and him are in perfect interaction and he is the very part of your being. God had a Son who was the very expression of himself his nature/image into flesh. This child who's being is the result of this was like us but with perfect relationship in which he breathed the Father as part of this very being and the Father was one and Jesus could truly say I and my Father are ONE. Sorry not difficult at all.
Last edited by TheLegalist; 07-15-2010 at 12:39 PM.
If the Son is God incarnate, then the Son is God. Sherri is wondering how God (incarnated as the Son) can be the mediator between Himself and man. Normally, a mediator is not one of the two parties in mediation!
Exactly. If the Son if "God in a flesh body" then he is God fully.
This gets into how the fully God, fully man dichotomy works. If I am fully man, I am void of the divine. Right? If I am fully man, I am FULLY man. But as soon as you add that I not only have Divine attributes, but am, in fact, the Almighty, then how can I also be a man? If one is "fully" one, he cannot be both. There's no room!
Just thinking out loud on the topic.
The explanation always pushes us toward mystery, and this is where I feel both Oneness and Trinitarians venture into areas we don't fully know, but we have fun talking about.
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