Faith without works is........

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by SteppingStone

Faith is actually a gift..

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

The reality is that some don't even have faith that's why you don't see any fruit of their labors being produced. Simply believing there's a God is not really faith, that's just believing. We "Believe" unto salvation and if we continue forward and believe on Christ according to the scriptures, then rivers of living waters will proceed from within us. And the greatest act of faith is loving your enemies (Takes a lot of virtue) because loving those that love you back is very easy to do..

many would consider that a totally different aspect than what Paul is talking about on Romans 4. So you are saying the "Faith" of James 2 is not given to everyone that is saved? LOL! You have to understand the use of the term faith as it is context and perspective oriented.


1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Faith cometh by hearing. Faith is trust and that is something you do in response to the WORD presented.


My point was ephesians 2:8 is not saying "faith" is the gift in reference but Grace is. We are saved BY Grace through faith that not of yourselves it is the gift of God lest any man should boast. "it is the gift of God" is a reference to grace. Now we can say he is the source of our faith as it is his Word that brings about saving faith which is our response to his Word. Thus Faith in that aspect is a result of the gift and is tangible aspect to the gift.

[seekerman]

Faith without works is a Baptist!

[SteppingStone]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

many would consider that a totally different aspect than what Paul is talking about on Romans 4. So you are saying the "Faith" of James 2 is not given to everyone that is saved? LOL! You have to understand the use of the term faith as it is context and perspective oriented.


1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Faith cometh by hearing. Faith is trust and that is something you do in response to the WORD presented.


My point was ephesians 2:8 is not saying "faith" is the gift in reference but Grace is. We are saved BY Grace through faith that not of yourselves it is the gift of God lest any man should boast. "it is the gift of God" is a reference to grace. Now we can say he is the source of our faith as it is his Word that brings about saving faith which is our response to his Word. Thus Faith in that aspect is a result of the gift and is tangible aspect to the gift.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Jesus said Abraham saw that day (Spiritually as did many others) and he was glad. So in reality Abraham 1st "Believed" and then continued forward. Their was no doubt divine virtue imparted. Abraham didn't just simply believe the story, his faith rested in the divine impartation, otherwise Abraham could boast himself...

So I believe people have a measure of faith but it's a gift from God. No man can declare Jesus is Lord but by the Father (Spirit.)

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by SteppingStone

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Jesus said Abraham saw that day (Spiritually as did many others) and he was glad. So in reality Abraham 1st "Believed" and then continued forward. Their was no doubt divine virtue imparted. Abraham didn't just simply believe the story, his faith rested in the divine impartation, otherwise Abraham could boast himself...

So I believe people have a measure of faith but it's a gift from God. No man can declare Jesus is Lord but by the Father (Spirit.)

again God has given every man a measure of faith. So is everyone saved? Again faith is a widely used term and it's uses vary. Faith in this regard has to do with cognitive aspects or the ability to respond which IMO destroys Total Depravity but that's another subject. God's Word comes forth for US to believe and trust in/respond. God doesn't make us respond WE CHOOSE TO! Your reading into the text and making man a completely depraved individual and he is not. God's Word is special in it's presentation but we CHOOSE to simply believe and respond or we cast it off because we would rather follow the things of the flesh.

[SteppingStone]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

again God has given every man a measure of faith. So is everyone saved? Again faith is a widely used term and it's uses vary. Faith in this regard has to do with cognitive aspects or the ability to respond which IMO destroys Total Depravity but that's another subject. God's Word comes forth for US to believe and trust in/respond. God doesn't make us respond WE CHOOSE TO! Your reading into the text and making man a completely depraved individual and he is not. God's Word is special in it's presentation but we CHOOSE to simply believe and respond or we cast it off because we would rather follow the things of the flesh.

Faith and Salvation are both gifts but I believe faith leads one to salvation from glory to glory. God draws us and He gets what He wants despite what doctrines of men have to say on the matter. I'm not sure where you're getting that I said men are totally depraved. I guess one could say in Romans 12 Paul is talking about that measure of faith in believers only though..

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by ouden katakrim

faith without works is not necessarily dead. James epistle is more pragmatic than theological and didactic. Since we are saved by grace through faith, and that faith a gift, it is necessarily the case that at justification the faith that justifies is a faith that has no works, i.e the thief on the cross...so unless we become like the thief, helpless, hopeless and deedless, we will not evacuate our soul of presumptuous works and believe.

Ouden

bingo

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by SteppingStone

Faith and Salvation are both gifts but I believe faith leads one to salvation from glory to glory. God draws us and He gets what He wants despite what doctrines of men have to say on the matter. I'm not sure where you're getting that I said men are totally depraved. I guess one could say in Romans 12 Paul is talking about that measure of faith in believers only though..

so faith is not a mans response? Man has no ability to trust at all? If man does not have the faculty to believe then he is totaly depraved of any ability to respond.

[ouden katakrim]

Legalist,

Don't know why the logic escapes you. Looking at Ephesians 2, if salvation is a gift then the mediating causes of that salvation, grace and faith, cannot be considered anything but a gift. You make a distinction which makes no difference. If my shirt is given as a gift then assuredly the buttons on that shirt are a gift also. Or who gives a pair of Nike's without the shoelaces? If my birthday cake is a gift, i.e. meaning I did not have to pay for it, then the work that goes into the cake is a gift also in the sense that I didn't pay for it.

From the primary cause to the secondary causes that bring about the effect is a gift just as much as the effect is.

As far as Ephesians 2 the "measure of faith" that is given is salvific and is not inherant in the recipient based upon the recipient's existence. It is based and given on account of grace . If the "dead in trespasses and sins" could believe before grace then his believing is not by grace nor is his salvation. Since the "dead in trespasses and sins" is saved by grace through faith, meaning the whole clause makes up the entirety of the gift (the baking and the cake), then that which he is saved through, faith, is as much of a gift as that which he is saved by, grace.

ouden

[ouden katakrim]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

so faith is not a mans response? Man has no ability to trust at all? If man does not have the faculty to believe then he is totaly depraved of any ability to respond.

Exactly. John 6: 35-40, 61-65

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by ouden katakrim

Exactly. John 6: 35-40, 61-65

Calvinists... LOL

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father — for everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him to have eternal life, and I will raise him up61 at the last day."62

so this sounds as if man has no part and man does nothing? It's God's fault then if we don't believe.... nice