MJ, Emergents, and Bishop Smith

[Aquila]

I think Smith's article is expressing some genuine concerns that should alarm us also. But please remember... the Apostles didn't reach their world in one generation by settling down in a suburb of Galatia, building a mega church, raking in tons of tax free money, and trying to get the lost Galatians to "come to church".

No sir.

They had a Christocentric approach to the Gospel that had no buildings, big business bank accounts, or pulpits. The persecution they faced generated the conditions necessary for the Gospel to flurish. Such conditions continued for nearly 300 years in spite of the peace experienced by Christians in some regions. They set the world afire by preaching in the markets, preaching in the fields, preaching in the public forums, and preaching from house to house. Their's wasn't a "church building based" or "temple based" religion. It was PERSONAL and spread from home to home throughout the empire. They "house churched". And they LOVED. They loved like a family.

The "preaching" they delivered throughout Acts was in homes, synagogues, and the open air. In the OT prophets preached in the "Gates". Down through history open air preaching has shaped culture. John Wesley said he'd impacted the world more through his preaching by preaching on his father's tomb than in the pulpit.

There was a time when Christianity was deeply personal in our culture and found from home to home. But today it's like you have to jump through the hoops of a denomination or organization. Always meet (sometimes 4 to 5 times a week) and give big money to the churches efforts to become a "mega church". Generations ago pioneers settled on land, read their bibles in their homes, led their families in prayer, and the circuit riding preacher would visit maybe every two to three weeks. It was then that the countryside would meet at the chapel. They didn't go to church as much as we do... but they practiced their Christianity constantly. I think church wears us out and sometimes prevents us from "living" and thereby "living Christianity" outside of a church building.

Think about it... what breeds faster? Huge lumbering elephants or bunny rabbits? We need to move to a smaller, more intimate, more powerful, more informal, more SPIRITUAL format for reaching our world. We're trying to build churches! Not save the world.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Some folks are fighting battles that that they alone have invented.

They have mistakenly believed for years that they have the truth, that they are winners and that the great world changing revival is just around the corner. It hasn't happened. It won't happen. The results are men who have spent their whole lives chasing something other than Christ and Him crucified.

Two pits we can fall into are:
1. dreaming about the "good old days" and trying to live on memories of things that really weren't all that good in the first place
2. dreaming about this huge revival which is just around the corner.

Thank God for the past. We found the Lord and He found us. He revealed truths over successive generations. But we can't drive a stake in the ground and tether ourselves to it and refuse to move on with the Holy Spirit. Now we are living in a day when God is pouring out His Spirit on all flesh. Thousands are coming to Jesus. It is estimated that there are 600 million Christians who consider themselves Charismatic or Pentecostal. It is my opinion that this is a "last day revival" --it's here now, step out into the rain and let it saturate you. Quit dreaming about the past and quit dreaming about the future, wake up and do something for God and receive from Him what He has for you.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by DAII

You've nailed it Delta. Its a spirit of Don Quixote chasing rhetorical windmills while pooping themselves out. Maybe the Bishop would get some rest if he cut down his 16 hour work days and plane hopping ... and served in his local community

now, that's a novel thought --serving people instead of politicking and organization building.

We had a pastor that used to say something like, "We can get so busy doing church work that we forget about the work of the church."

[Sam]

I think Bishop Smith said some good things.

I don't know him although he is from a neighboring state (Indiana) and is a cousin of a UPC preacher who is married to my wife's cousin.

I like the idea of "umbrella" type organizations like the one he leads and also the ICOF led by Bishop Bernie Wade (He also is from a neighboring state -Kentucky). However, just the way Bishop Smith seems to sever from the Body of Christ those who do not agree with his personal doctrine of water baptism bothers me.

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think Smith's article is expressing some genuine concerns that should alarm us also. But please remember... the Apostles didn't reach their world in one generation by settling down in a suburb of Galatia, building a mega church, raking in tons of tax free money, and trying to get the lost Galatians to "come to church".

No sir.

They had a Christocentric approach to the Gospel that had no buildings, big business bank accounts, or pulpits. The persecution they faced generated the conditions necessary for the Gospel to flurish. Such conditions continued for nearly 300 years in spite of the peace experienced by Christians in some regions. They set the world afire by preaching in the markets, preaching in the fields, preaching in the public forums, and preaching from house to house. Their's wasn't a "church building based" or "temple based" religion. It was PERSONAL and spread from home to home throughout the empire. They "house churched". And they LOVED. They loved like a family.

The "preaching" they delivered throughout Acts was in homes, synagogues, and the open air. In the OT prophets preached in the "Gates". Down through history open air preaching has shaped culture. John Wesley said he'd impacted the world more through his preaching by preaching on his father's tomb than in the pulpit.

There was a time when Christianity was deeply personal in our culture and found from home to home. But today it's like you have to jump through the hoops of a denomination or organization. Always meet (sometimes 4 to 5 times a week) and give big money to the churches efforts to become a "mega church". Generations ago pioneers settled on land, read their bibles in their homes, led their families in prayer, and the circuit riding preacher would visit maybe every two to three weeks. It was then that the countryside would meet at the chapel. They didn't go to church as much as we do... but they practiced their Christianity constantly. I think church wears us out and sometimes prevents us from "living" and thereby "living Christianity" outside of a church building.

Think about it... what breeds faster? Huge lumbering elephants or bunny rabbits? We need to move to a smaller, more intimate, more powerful, more informal, more SPIRITUAL format for reaching our world. We're trying to build churches! Not save the world.

Agreed... exactly what I was trying to say, but much better.

I was just having a conversation with some friends over the weekend. We were talking about how nice it has been since we left "the big church" because it felt like we were constantly on a treadmill. Over the last 25 years that I've been in the church, I have observed that we've consistently lost about 75% to 80% of each generation of young people that have come through our "student groups". Our problems start around these points:

* We have a lot of parents (certainly not all) who relinquish their parenting duties to the Sunday School and Youth Departments. They can't make a decision concerning their children without asking the youth pastor what he thinks first. They assume that the youth group is teaching them all the foundational truths they'll ever need. They also assume that the more they are around the youth group, the more spiritual their son or daughter will be.

* We have churches FULL of grown ups who can't make a decision for themselves without asking "the man of God." Because they were raised to think that all decisions needed to go through their youth pastor, they are crippled beyond decisions about what to eat for supper. Again... the church leadership tells them what's right and wrong, and there is very little Berean study going on to see whether these things were so.

* We have activity after activity after activity, and all of it is centered around the church.

I said above that it felt like we were on a treadmill because we were always doing something, but never getting anywhere, never growing personally, never getting closer to God. When there are regular services four times a week, not counting the youth activities, work days, visitation and outreach activities, what time is left for anything else? If you work 40 to 45 hours a week, there's not much time left other than to grab a bite to eat late at night and go to bed and do it all over tomorrow. And if you dare miss an activity or service, you get the phone call the next morning (if not that evening) with the "we missed you" message that makes you feel like a backslidden sinner because you failed in your commitment to "the house of God."

We will continue to lose generations, and we will continue to be overall ineffective in making a difference in our world, until we stop making the church the center of our lives. We need to make the family the center of our lives, with Jesus as our head. Parents need to be parents, and grown ups need to make prayerful decisions after seeking the face of Christ for direction. Not saying that seeking godly counsel from an elder (a more experienced and mature brother or sister) is wrong, but it shouldn't be our first (or only) resort.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sam

Two pits we can fall into are:
1. dreaming about the "good old days" and trying to live on memories of things that really weren't all that good in the first place
2. dreaming about this huge revival which is just around the corner.

Thank God for the past. We found the Lord and He found us. He revealed truths over successive generations. But we can't drive a stake in the ground and tether ourselves to it and refuse to move on with the Holy Spirit. Now we are living in a day when God is pouring out His Spirit on all flesh. Thousands are coming to Jesus. It is estimated that there are 600 million Christians who consider themselves Charismatic or Pentecostal. It is my opinion that this is a "last day revival" --it's here now, step out into the rain and let it saturate you. Quit dreaming about the past and quit dreaming about the future, wake up and do something for God and receive from Him what He has for you.

AMEN!

I have often been troubled how some preachers assume that the last days outpouring will come strictly from their own organization.

[Aquila]

How many "Christians" are there in America who have given up on the current religious systems? What would happen if something ignited them to do something for their world without trying to make them a "member" of a religious country club?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by jaamez

Sorry, Dan... I couldn't read the whole thing. It started to make me a little nauseous - as my nerves started to tighten because of years of hearing this moaning from pulpits. I agree to an extent with a concern for how worldly (materialistic, and fixated on Hollywood) Christians have become, and I think that too many churches in "the movement" have lost sight of their calling and are pursuing glitz and popularity rather than the simplicity of Christ.
But the fear tactics just make me sick. And the judgmental spirit makes me cringe. When will people understand that another "church service" and another "conference sermon" are not going to change the world? Once the emotional high of these sequestered meetings fades, it's back to business as usual.
Also, I don't agree that the early church preached "a salvation message." They preached Jesus Christ FIRST AND FOREMOST! The gospel has Jesus Christ at the center, not a formula. And it really gripes me to hear someone condemn those who are actually serving and doing (using "social gospel" to degrade and downplay what we are actually called to do) and exalting themselves as the lone defenders of truth. Wouldn't it be great if I never had to hear some preacher proclaim "we have the truth" while condemning all others who have a different point of view. Our arrogance will be our undoing for sure.

Sorry for the rambling...

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Aquila

AMEN!

I have often been troubled how some preachers assume that the last days outpouring will come strictly from their own organization.

One advantage of getting older is that you learn from what you've seen and experienced over the years. I remember when the "Charismatic Movement" and the "Jesus People" things were happening. How could that be God moving among them when they didn't look like us and believe like us? For some reason or another we (and I include myself here) felt like we had an exclusive franchise on the Holy Spirit. If anyone wanted the Holy Spirit, they would have to come to us, line up with us, and then they could receive. It took a while for it to dawn on me that God wasn't interested in our little "exclusive bless me club with our exclusive doctrines and weird rules." Instead, He filled the hearts of those who were hungering and thirsting for Him. Back in the sixties I was quite conflicted. The gifts and blessings of God in these people's lives had to be genuine but they weren't part of "us." It wasn't until the seventies (actually late seventies) that I was able to see that the House of God is much larger than that little room we had chosen to huddle together in and to live in with our "fortress mentality".

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by Sam

One advantage of getting older is that you learn from what you've seen and experienced over the years. I remember when the "Charismatic Movement" and the "Jesus People" things were happening. How could that be God moving among them when they didn't look like us and believe like us? For some reason or another we (and I include myself here) felt like we had an exclusive franchise on the Holy Spirit. If anyone wanted the Holy Spirit, they would have to come to us, line up with us, and then they could receive. It took a while for it to dawn on me that God wasn't interested in our little "exclusive bless me club with our exclusive doctrines and weird rules." Instead, He filled the hearts of those who were hungering and thirsting for Him. Back in the sixties I was quite conflicted. The gifts and blessings of God in these people's lives had to be genuine but they weren't part of "us." It wasn't until the seventies (actually late seventies) that I was able to see that the House of God is much larger than that little room we had chosen to huddle together in and to live in with our "fortress mentality".

Sam, the older I get (just turned 43 yesterday), the more I realize that I know less than I did when I was certain of everything and had God all figured out. It's so true. In "apostolicdom" we make everything black and white, in and out, truth and lie. But as I open my eyes and look around me, there are more than a few occasions that I witness true Christ-like behavior and lifestyle from someone who goes to "that sinner church down the road" than is exhibited in those who "know the truth."