Why I Believe in Eternal Security

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Religious Nut

The passage certainly does say that those who are saved will not continue sinning, but it goes beyond that. It says that all those who have been born again will not continue sinning.

Yes....well I assumed a saved person was born again, so I don't see how this shows a saved person can't lose their salvation.

Whatever version you are using brings this out even clearer than in the King James, even though both translations essentially say the same thing.

It does bring IT out clearer though I don't see how it brings out your assertion that a saved person can never be unsaved. It simply tells us a saved person will not continue to practice sin.

I encourage you to look at it a second time.

Trust me, this last time was not the first and I have had this discussion before with others.

Look at the last part of verse 6--it says that no one who keeps on sinning has either seen or known him, which indicates that those who keep on sinning neither did see or know him, which indicates that they never were saved.

It might "indicate" it or imply it, that's a possibility, yet that is not what it says.

However is this talking about someone that seemingly fell away? I don't think so. We have to be sure of the context and Paul's point so we do not misapply it to a different situation.If he is in fact talking about believers and false believers who claim to be believers, then this does not apply to those that fell away. In fact read it like this to see my point "no one who keeps on sinning from the beginning has either seen him or known him"

Someone that is saved and after years later falls away can't necessarily be said that they kept on sinning. Rather they probably did rather well for a while until they fell from grace.

Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

I don't see anything here to indicate John was referring to someone that seemed to be saved but then later seemed to fall away and only then began to practice sin.

Let me ask you a rhetorical question....let's say 3 years from now you begin to commit a habitual sin recurring for weeks...are you practicing sin? Does that mean you were never saved to begin with? And then let's say you decide you wanted to return....but the fact is you can't return because you were never there to begin with...what do you do? What advice do you have for folks that started practicing sin again and want to be saved when they feel they really did believe the first time...what can they do differently? How can they believe differently?

I always felt this once saved always saved, they were never saved to begin with, could deliver the death blow to some poor soul that fell away and wants to come back to the Lord. What do you tell them to help them do it right this time? Do you tell them they were never really predestinated to begin with and they might as well go party hard because they are going to hell no matter what?

All those who are truely saved will keep his commandments according to 1 John 3:9.

right, that's how we know who is saved and who is not, but this does not teach us about those that ARE saved and fall away for whatever reason.

Originally Posted by Religious Nut

This thread grew out of the other thread that I started because a few people wanted to discuss the issue of eternal security with me. My understanding of the topic of the security of the believer is that all of those who are once truly cleansed by the blood of Christ in the eyes of God will never be damned to hell, but all of them will inherit eternal life, and that those who fall away from the truth and wind up in hell, from God’s perspective, were never saved in the first place. I do not like to use the term “unconditional eternal security” because I believe that our future inheritance is conditional upon faith, and certain things that we do, such as studying the word, praying and staying away from evil keeps our faith going. In other words, just as God uses means to accomplish His will in other things, God uses means to preserve His children. Therefore, I do not believe in some “greasy grace” or “easy believism” message. In my observation, one of the main reasons why so many people reject the doctrine of eternal security is because they tend to equate it to easy believism. Another reason why most Pentecostals reject it is that the Pentecostal Movement has an Armenian theological heritage since it grew out of the Holiness Movement of the late 1800’s and early 1900’s which was an Armenian/Wesleyan movement. Despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of Oneness Pentecostals today reject eternal security, I believe it because I believe that the Bible emphatically teaches it for the following reasons, and many more:

Because those who fall away were never truly saved in the first place:

Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Because those who are truly born again will never live in a continuous lifestyle of sin:

1 John 3:9-10 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Because we are no longer condemned by our sins when we do sin:

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Because those who are saved never depart from God:

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

John 10:4-5 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Because no one will ever remove us from God’s hand:

Isaiah 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Because Jesus will lose none that that the Father gave him:

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Because we already have eternal life:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Because we have already received our inheritance:

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Because all who receive initial salvation (those who are justified) will be glorified:

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Because Christ’s death on the cross secured our salvation:

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

If one views salvation as that which occurs when we go home to be with the Lord (what some have called our "glorification"), then I agree we can never lose that salvation.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Yes....well I assumed a saved person was born again, so I don't see how this shows a saved person can't lose their salvation.

Let me ask you this question, and based upon what you have said, I assume that your answer is "yes."

Do you believe that those who lose their salvation stop being born again?

From my experience, the version of conditional security that most Oneness Pentecostals teach is that those who lose their salvation are still born again; those who fall away are still sons of God. However, they are disinherited children of God. If they get restored, they do not have to be born again-again so to speak, but just need to repent and confess and they are restored. 1 John chapter 3 clearly contradicts this version of conditional security since it teaches that it is impossible for those who are born again to live in a lifestyle of sin. But if you believe that apostates stop being born again need to be re-baptized when they come back to the truth, then 1 John 3:9 does not necessarily contradict your position.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

In fact read it like this to see my point "no one who keeps on sinning from the beginning has either seen him or known him".

Someone that is saved and after years later falls away can't necessarily be said that they kept on sinning. Rather they probably did rather well for a while until they fell from grace.

I understand the point that you are making with 1 John 3:6 but do not agree with all that you say about it. The latter part of the verse says "whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." Some of the translations other than the KJV bring out even more clearly the point I am about to make. For instance, Today's English Version says "but whosoever continues to sin has never seen him or known him." According to what this says, those who fell away and continue to sin have never seen or known him, not that some of them once see and know him, and they no longer do.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

The key to understanding Galatians 5:4 is understanding the difference between justification before God and justification before man. It is not something that is to hard to understand if we open up our minds. If I go into a church, I might say things like calling everybody in the church my brother or sister in Christ, say that we on our way to heaven, that we are saved, etc. Yet at the same time, I do not know infallibly whether or not everybody within that church is right with God. Perhaps a couple of them are not. This indicates that there is a difference between being right before God from our perspective, and being right before God from God's perspective. When Paul said that they were in grace, and that those who would be circumcized were fallen from grace, he meant that they were in an apparent state of grace. In verse 1, Paul says that the people in the Galatian church were in a state of liberty and freedom, meaning that they were in a right standing before God, but at the same time, only God knew who within the Galatian church was truely within a right standing before Him since only God knows someone's heart.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Let me ask you a rhetorical question....let's say 3 years from now you begin to commit a habitual sin recurring for weeks...are you practicing sin? Does that mean you were never saved to begin with?

That really depends upon the specific situation. It is hard for me to give you a black or white answer to that question since every situation is unique. In the context of 1 John, people denied that Jesus was the Christ and apostostasized into a false doctrine of Christ. I do not know if this is a satisfactory answer to your question but to relate what is taught in 1 John to a comtemporary situation, if I renunciated what I believed and became a Mormon, a Buddhist, an agnostic, or something along those lines, then yes I never was saved in the first place.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

And then let's say you decide you wanted to return....but the fact is you can't return because you were never there to begin with...what do you do? What advice do you have for folks that started practicing sin again and want to be saved when they feel they really did believe the first time...what can they do differently? How can they believe differently?

No. I would not turn apostates away but would reccomend them to obey Acts 2:38.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I always felt this once saved always saved, they were never saved to begin with, could deliver the death blow to some poor soul that fell away and wants to come back to the Lord. What do you tell them to help them do it right this time? Do you tell them they were never really predestinated to begin with and they might as well go party hard because they are going to hell no matter what?

The doctrine of preserverance would not necessarily deliver a death blow to someone like that, unless someone taught a version of it that stated that it was impossible for one who fell away to get restored. I do however, know that there are some out there who believe that someone can lose their salvation, and if they do, they can never get it back.

[ILuvFPC]

sounds like your wanting to keep a foot in the door at first baptist.....

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by ILuvFPC

sounds like your wanting to keep a foot in the door at first baptist.....

Baptists dont teach one can overcome sin. This version of eternal security if I understand it right teaches a more weighty doctrine of overcoming than modern Pentecostals.

Originally Posted by ILuvFPC

sounds like your wanting to keep a foot in the door at first baptist.....

I'm not a baptist any more than I am a Roman Catholic since I believe that baptism is essential for salvation.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Religious Nut

Let me ask you this question, and based upon what you have said, I assume that your answer is "yes."

Do you believe that those who lose their salvation stop being born again?

The greek for born again is really born from above. Yes I think they can stop being born from above. To be born from above, according to what Jesus said, must include being born of the Spirit. If what makes us born from above is having the Spirit in us, then removing that Spirit would make us no longer born from above. We are adopted when we receive the Spirit of adoption and it is quite possible to unadopt someone as a child

I understand the point that you are making with 1 John 3:6 but do not agree with all that you say about it. The latter part of the verse says "whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." Some of the translations other than the KJV bring out even more clearly the point I am about to make. For instance, Today's English Version says "but whosoever continues to sin has never seen him or known him." According to what this says, those who fell away and continue to sin have never seen or known him, not that some of them once see and know him, and they no longer do.

Yes, that is not the problem as I pointed out before. Who is John speaking of? Context, audience and grammar are important tools to biblical interpretation. Is John speaking of people who were believers but "seemed to fall away"? Or is he speaking of those that from the beginning of what seems to be their conversion continue to sin anyways? I would agree with John there with the latter, that they never knew him, never seen him.I don't see how John is speaking of people who were believers seemingly for years and then started sinning again and fell away that they were never saved to begin with.

The key to understanding Galatians 5:4 is understanding the difference between justification before God and justification before man. It is not something that is to hard to understand if we open up our minds. If I go into a church, I might say things like calling everybody in the church my brother or sister in Christ, say that we on our way to heaven, that we are saved, etc. Yet at the same time, I do not know infallibly whether or not everybody within that church is right with God. Perhaps a couple of them are not. This indicates that there is a difference between being right before God from our perspective, and being right before God from God's perspective. When Paul said that they were in grace, and that those who would be circumcized were fallen from grace, he meant that they were in an apparent state of grace. In verse 1, Paul says that the people in the Galatian church were in a state of liberty and freedom, meaning that they were in a right standing before God, but at the same time, only God knew who within the Galatian church was truely within a right standing before Him since only God knows someone's heart.

Paul said "You are fallen away from grace"....Paul said "You are severed from Christ". That's pretty clear. I don't see how you can tell me Paul meant something else.

That really depends upon the specific situation. It is hard for me to give you a black or white answer to that question since every situation is unique. In the context of 1 John, people denied that Jesus was the Christ and apostostasized into a false doctrine of Christ. I do not know if this is a satisfactory answer to your question but to relate what is taught in 1 John to a comtemporary situation, if I renunciated what I believed and became a Mormon, a Buddhist, an agnostic, or something along those lines, then yes I never was saved in the first place.

How can they Apostasize if they were never saved or born again to begin with? That seems contradictory.

Also what John said was sin, practice sin, not join another religion. So essentially every believer that has repented and lived a pretty moral life for a year or more...maybe 5 years, should they fall into a sinning habit they never knew Christ, never saw Christ, was not really saved or born again. What would be your advice to them? Repent? But they did that already....how do they REALLY get born again?

No. I would not turn apostates away but would reccomend them to obey Acts 2:38.

But what about someone that starts to practice sin...are you going to tell them they were never saved, never born again and never knew Christ...to repeat what it was they did before to REALLY get saved this time and then they will NEVER practice sin again? And what happens if they do, after a while of serving God....what do we tell them? Try Acts 2:38 again, maybe it will work this time?

The doctrine of preserverance would not necessarily deliver a death blow to someone like that, unless someone taught a version of it that stated that it was impossible for one who fell away to get restored. I do however, know that there are some out there who believe that someone can lose their salvation, and if they do, they can never get it back.

You don't think it can be very discouraging for someone to tell you that you were never saved to begin with, never born again, never really knew Christ??!?! Imagine someone that was living for Christ for years and they become weak for whatever reason and start sinning,,,they "backslide"..
Bro A comes along and says "Brother we will pray for you and help you be restored"
But Bro B comes along and says "Brother, you were never saved to begin with. You were never born again. You can't be restored, you need to be saved"
And yet that brother had thought they WERE saved already. Can't you imagine the confusion that he might go through? Can't you imagine the dispair and not knowing what he can do since he thought he already was believing and already was born again...what else should he try?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The greek for born again is really born from above. Yes I think they can stop being born from above. To be born from above, according to what Jesus said, must include being born of the Spirit. If what makes us born from above is having the Spirit in us, then removing that Spirit would make us no longer born from above. We are adopted when we receive the Spirit of adoption and it is quite possible to unadopt someone as a child

Since you hold to this view, your view does not necessarily contradict 1 John 3:9, but it does contradict verse 6 which teaches that all those who continue in sin were never saved. Also, if you believe that those who fall away become spiritually un-born, then they would need to obey Acts 2:38 all over again, unless you do not believe that Acts 2:38 is the only way to be born again.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't see how John is speaking of people who were believers seemingly for years and then started sinning again and fell away that they were never saved to begin with.

I cannot understand how you cannot see that.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Paul said "You are fallen away from grace"....Paul said "You are severed from Christ". That's pretty clear. I don't see how you can tell me Paul meant something else.

I explained myself in my previous post and feel no need to re-explain myself.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

How can they Apostasize if they were never saved or born again to begin with? That seems contradictory.

If they start to fellowship with saints, believe in some Biblical doctrines, clean up their character, appear to be saved, and fall away from that state, they have apostosized.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Also what John said was sin, practice sin, not join another religion. So essentially every believer that has repented and lived a pretty moral life for a year or more...maybe 5 years, should they fall into a sinning habit they never knew Christ, never saw Christ, was not really saved or born again. What would be your advice to them? Repent? But they did that already....how do they REALLY get born again?

People REALLY get born again by repenting, being baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of sins, and by recieving the Spirit.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

But what about someone that starts to practice sin...are you going to tell them they were never saved, never born again and never knew Christ...to repeat what it was they did before to REALLY get saved this time and then they will NEVER practice sin again? And what happens if they do, after a while of serving God....what do we tell them? Try Acts 2:38 again, maybe it will work this time?

It depends upon what you consider the practice of sin, because there are differing degrees of practicing sin. Although in many instances we can tell if someone is not right with God, there is a lot of gray area. I would not tell them to obey Acts 2:38 again if they missed church three weeks in a row, or something like that.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You don't think it can be very discouraging for someone to tell you that you were never saved to begin with, never born again, never really knew Christ??!?! Imagine someone that was living for Christ for years and they become weak for whatever reason and start sinning,,,they "backslide"..
Bro A comes along and says "Brother we will pray for you and help you be restored"
But Bro B comes along and says "Brother, you were never saved to begin with. You were never born again. You can't be restored, you need to be saved"
And yet that brother had thought they WERE saved already. Can't you imagine the confusion that he might go through? Can't you imagine the dispair and not knowing what he can do since he thought he already was believing and already was born again...what else should he try?

Brother, I am basing what I believe upon the Bible and not upon a bunch of what-if scenerios.

[Felicity]

I believe we're eternally secure as long as we stay in Christ.

[Truly Blessed]

RN, Thanks for what you have presented, but I have a question for you. In Revelation 3:5 the church at Sardis is told concerning overcomers, "I will never blot his name from the book of life." It seems to me that if it is true that those who awakened themselves, repented and obeyed wouldn't have their names blotted from the book of life, those who failed to do as they were instructed would have their names blotted from the book of life.

Also, this book of life goes way back and it seems that it was possible to have one's name blotted out according to several incidents in the OT.

Moses for one asked that his name be blotted out if God was unwilling to forgive the Israelites their sins.

"But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written."

The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book." (Exodus 32:32-33)

I'm interested in your interpretation of this.

Revelation 21:27 is very clear that only those whose names are written in the book of life will enter heaven and all whose names are not written there will be cast into hell. (Rev.20:15) So, IMO this is an important issue.