The Doctrine of The Incarnation

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by Cindy

I don't think it had a form, it was a spirit.

I believe the word was His word. When you speak your word it is not a separate human, nor a spirit, but it is you. Your word is who you are.

He said, "Let there be light and there was light." His word, ("Let there be light and there was light.") at that moment did not become spirit nor flesh but in that case it became "light."

His Word, "what He said", was Him, was with Him and was Him and, as in the beginning of time, what He said became what He said.

Again, I don't think His word was spirit, flesh or any other entity at the beginning. It was His spoken word, or even in His mind and reason before He spoke it. But when He spoke it, in due season, it became flesh in the form of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Let's say it like this.... “In the beginning was the Word, ...... (the Logos...Logos |ˈlōˌgōs; -ˌgäs| .... noun Theology....the Word of God, or principle of divine reason and creative order) and the Word (principle of divine reason and creative order) was with God, and the Word (principle of divine reason and creative order) was God.” John 1:1, KJV.

“14 And the Word (principle of divine reason and creative order) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, (the glory of his divine reason and creative order) the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” John 1:14, KJV.

I hope this makes sense...

Still Been Thinkin

[jfrog]

The simple fact is that the bible never explains to us what the Word actually is. We explicitly know two things about it. It was somehow with God and it somehow was God. Oh and a third. It was made flesh and dwelt among us.

It is not even certain if John 1's reference of the Word is a reference to God actually speaking or some deeper philosophical concept that is not found elsewhere in the bible. Pretty much its all just guesswork when it comes to knowing who or what the Word is.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by jfrog

The simple fact is that the bible never explains to us what the Word actually is. We explicitly know two things about it. It was somehow with God and it somehow was God. Oh and a third. It was made flesh and dwelt among us.

It is not even certain if John 1's reference of the Word is a reference to God actually speaking or some deeper philosophical concept that is not found in the bible. Pretty much its all just guesswork when it comes to knowing who or what the Word is.

In 1 John 1 the Word is described in terms like:

that which was from the beginning,
which we have heard,
which we have seen with our eyes,
which we have looked upon,
and our hands have handled,

He goes on to say that this "Word of Life" was "manifested"
and they had seen it and bore witness of it.

The language here in 1 John chapter 1 is similar to chapter 1 of John's Gospel which sorta culminates in verse 18 which reads as follows in the Amplified Bible.
No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].

[tbpew]

We are given SEED in the temporal realm to understand WORDs in the invisible realm.
...........
My understanding about the WORD of God as it pertains to the incarnation.

I fully agree with your statement:
"I believe the word was His word. When you speak your word it is not a separate human, nor a spirit, but it is you. Your word is who you are."[BT post]

But since we do not readily see the inherent creative force of our own words, we generally have a restricted/limited view of WORDs.

God formed everything that is (the world) by his word. When God spoke let there be light....God did not become light, God's word resulted in LIGHT being.

Seeds are sent forth from the sower. Seeds produce increase after their kind. Seeds produce based on the conditions in which they are received.

A Father provides a seed that results in his own child.

The seed is of the father and when sent forth from the father, it bears witness of the father but is NOT the father since it proceeds forth from the father.

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by Sam

In 1 John 1 the Word is described in terms like:

that which was from the beginning,
which we have heard,
which we have seen with our eyes,
which we have looked upon,
and our hands have handled,

He goes on to say that this "Word of Life" was "manifested"
and they had seen it and bore witness of it.

The language here in 1 John chapter 1 is similar to chapter 1 of John's Gospel which sorta culminates in verse 18 which reads as follows in the Amplified Bible.
No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known].

And in my mind this makes my point. No man has ever seen God, only the manifestation of Him has been seen by man. If Jesus was God it would be hard to argue that no one had seen Him, had seen God.

God thru His Word, the Logos of God, from the beginning, spoke and the worlds were formed and then He spoke and the same word that made light, water, animals.... then was made manifest thru the Son of God. If the Word was more than the Word.... ie. the Eternal Almighty God, then it would have to read like this.... "And God was made God!!!" No way!

There is no way to make something that is eternal, eternal! The very idea of "making something" causes it to not be eternal. So, is the Word a "made God" or can we simply say it like the scripture says it over and over...."the Word was made the Son of God!" Again, the same Word that made all things, "let there be...and there was"..... said in so many words, "Let there be a Son and there was a Son!

In further consideration, consider the words of Jesus in John 17...

17* ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18* As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19* And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. (God had to sanctify Himself??? I don't think so! The Son did! And by the way that's why I think Jesus could have sinned. His keeping himself from sin was not a farce, a make believe, a joke. He actually suffered as we suffer....temptations and all!)
20* ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21* That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22* And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: (They had glory with the Father, just as Jesus had glory with His Father, but that glory did not make them God (no more than it made Jesus God) ....just another manifestation of the Eternal God.)
23* I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. John 17:17-21

Im tired.... thinkin Is tough!

Been Thinkin

[JN Anderson]

No matter how much or how long we engage the discussion of the Incarnation, due to our finite nature we will still find ourselves wondering about certain issues. I do not think the Incarnation is illogical or logically contradictory but is hard to understand as humans or with the information that we currently know in our matter-time-space continuum.

When we say that God became a man (John 1:14) we are not saying something logically contradictory. We are not saying that a triangle is a circle or that the color orange is blue at the same time. We are conceding a difference between God and man but we are also admitting that they are not logially incompatible. We are suggesting the Incarnation is more akin to an orange triangle. God and man are ideas from two logical worlds but are not incompatible. We are saying that something is both a triangle in shape and orange in color--no contradictions.

The Incarnation however is our glimpse into the world of God. Today we experience and know what those of the OT only saw partially. It is a true glimpse of the reality rather than simply a literary telling. God entered our human existence and given us away of escape. The Incarnation lets us know that God has come and that He will come again to take His Bride away; destroy evil and bring justice.

[Sam]

Here's how one person tried to define it

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by BeenThinkin

I have searched the Archives and have not been able to find a thread that covered the subject of The Incarnation exactly. Did I overlook something?

What do you consider the concrete, positive, in detail doctrine of the Incarnation.

BeenThinkin

Originally Posted by BeenThinkin

In what form was "The Word" before it was made flesh?

BT

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by BeenThinkin

And in my mind this makes my point. No man has ever seen God, only the manifestation of Him has been seen by man. If Jesus was God it would be hard to argue that no one had seen Him, had seen God.

Not at all. Jesus was not just God. Jesus was God and Man. What they saw was the invisible God revealed through the human nature. When you see Jesus you saw the visible representation, not the invisible Spirit. Jesus was both that invisible omnipresent Spirit AND that visible human being

[Sam]

no one saw God as the invisible Spirit who fills all time and space
but
they saw Him in His visible form by which He revealed Himself