Disagreements With the Nicene Creed?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by jfrog

You have a problem calling Jesus the only begotten Son of God after reading John 3:16? Do you also have a problem saying the "logos" was in the beginning with God and was God and surely in a sense proceeded forth from God (John 1:1)? I think there is even less that you actually disagree with than what you made red, mipzeh.

Sorry, JFrog, I overhighlighted!

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Sorry, JFrog, I overhighlighted!

Sorry for picking on ya mizpeh! You was the only person that highlighted enough for me to find something wrong with So I had no other choice jkjk!!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Sorry for picking on ya mizpeh! You was the only person that highlighted enough for me to find something wrong with So I had no other choice jkjk!!

I fixed the problem. Now do you have any questions?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I fixed the problem. Now do you have any questions?

I think most if not all of the first colored blue and red part you agree with given a little clarification. You believe that the Word proceeded from God (God spoke). So in a sense you could say the Word was begotten by God before anything was created (for everything was created by the Word). You believe that the Word was God, so in a sense you could say very God(the Word) from very God (the Father) because the Word was God (John 1:1) and proceeded forth from God (God spoke). So you might not agree with the way you think they are meaning it in that creed, but with a little clarification (nothing really added, just differentiating how you see it as opposed to how they see it) you can agree with those statements I think.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

THE NICENE CREED

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Truth is, there is not that much to disagree with in this creed, we have just been taught that it was conceived in the pit, and that we should scared to death of every word of it, especially that word catholic.

[Gods_Chosen_85]

325 A.D. was a bad year for the early church. Not only did the Nicene council adopt an erroneous doctrine as truth but within the same time period the dark ages begin!!

The definition of the trinity as i am sure we all know cause we debate it so much is that there are three separate but co-equal persons coexisting and acting as one God! In the trinitarian corner we have Papa God, Jehovah Jr, and being that the third person in the trinity is a spirit we shall call him.. Casper the Holy Ghost!

In the other corner we have Jehovah God a.k.a. Jesus Christ who according to scripture was God manifested in the flesh..

1 Timothy 3:16 (King James Version)

16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

It didnt say Jehovah Jr was manifested in flesh but God himself... lets look at more scriptures we all know!!

John 1:1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Once again scripture points to Papa God who is The Word being made flesh! Who was the flesh? Jesus Christ, therefore if Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh and the Word is God and it was God who manifested Himself in flesh... common sense says the Nicene Council got it wrong!

Exodus 3:13-15

13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Remind me again about John 8:58

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

lets examine one more set of scriptures just for the fun of it...

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Zechariah 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Ephesians 3:9

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

So its clear in the Old Testament that Jehovah God created the heavens and the earth, and yet in the new testament it states all things were created by Jesus Christ. So if Jehovah God is the Creator and everything was created by Jesus Christ, that makes Jesus Christ the Creator and Jehovah God!

okay so there is so much more I could put but we be here all night but I leave you with this thought! Trinitarians say that Papa God and Casper The Friendly Holy Ghost are to separate persons and both are spirits! But take note of the following scriptures!

Ephesians 4:4-6

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

So obviously if scripture states that there is only one Spirit who is God and Father of All then there cant be a separate person in the Godhead who is also a spirit! Cause 1 person +1 person =2 people... hmmm yep and scripture states there is only one...

okay so i close for real this time

Isaiah 9:6 (King James Version)

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus Christ in this prophecy is call the The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father... yet we just read in Ephesians that there is One God and Father of us all!! Yet if the trinity is correct( it isn't ) that would make us have two Gods and two fathers, on top of having the two spirits we talked about earlier... hmmm

or we can just assume that scripture is infallible so that would mean that there is only One God who manifested himself in the flesh and sent His own spirit to live in us as born again believers!

So at the end of todays match its God 1 - Nicene Council 0




This is a fight that has been going on for centuries and yet God isn't the one fighting this battle. He doesn't have to fight because He knows who He is! Its man fighting each other; thinking they fight on His behalf!

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by missourimary

This is fairly solidly quotations or paraphrases from the bible until the part above. Thought I do think that oneness have a problem with a few scriptures that trinies use as much as trinies have a problem with some oneness verses. "proceeds from the Father and the Son" indicates two personages, not one. Otherwise they could have said "proceeds from God".
"who with the Father and the Son together" again indicates separations rather than oneness. See above.
"holy catholic and apostolic church" Catholic doesn't indicate denomination here, but world-wide, and knowing that, is not unbiblical either.

I really think that oneness strains at gnats on some points. As I said in another post, I was oneness in a trinitarian church, as was my mom and as have been several others that I have known. Not all Trinies believe three Gods. Most, as a matter of fact, do not.

I stated that on an earlier thread and got blown out of the water by some one that said that that was not how trinies beleive. But maybe he was just not seeing the way I explained the godhead. LOL oh well

[Jack Shephard]

I am VERY oneness to the core, but I do not disagree with anything that is the in Creed. I believe that often times we look at this Creed and try to tear it apart cause we feel the we have too. The feeling that 'other denominal churches use the and we are different than them so it (the creed) must be false.'

There is nothing in that Creed that is not in the Bible. The whole '1+1+1=1 thing is goofy. The Creed is saying, IMO, that those that repeat it as a belief are saying they believe in these offices of God's persona. If it said I believe in God, then I believe there is Jesus and then there is the Holy Ghost....then that would be incorrect, IMO. 'Cause it is make a clear distinction between actual individuals. But I DO NOT see that the Creed is trying to separate God into 3 individuals. For someone to read into it that way is looking and saying they see something that is just not there, IMO.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by EA

THE NICENE CREED

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I bolded what I disagree with.

I don't see a pre-existant person of Christ beside the Father.
I don't believe that Chris is "God from God" an immanating second divine person.
I believe that the Son possess a human nature in which the Father is manifest. I don't believe that the Son is of one substance and nature with the Father.
I don't believe that the Holy Ghost immanates from the Father and the Son.
I don't believe that the Father and the Son is "worshipped together" as a pair.

The only creed that I find to be biblical is the Apostle's Creed:

Apostle’s Creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

That's my take. God bless.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

Trinitarian math just kills me!

1+1+1=1

I believe in one, and one, and one!

Read it Senor Anglin!

There are three 1's which make 3!

At least that is the way we count in Mexico!

Uno, Dos, Tres!

Uno, y uno, y uno es tres!


M.

Well, the Bible (KJV --but not some of the modern altered versions) says

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The 1599 Geneva Bible, which is considered more Protestant than the KJV, agrees with that reading in 1 John 5:7