Church Choir (Volunteer versus Paid) Question

[PraiseHymn]

You raise a valid point. Now, lets keep in mind, they will pay for our flight, they will pay for our food and they will pay for our hotel. HOWEVER, how do you deal with the missed days at work (your secular job)? How do you deal with the fact that you might not have the savings to draw from to make up for time lossed on your job.

The minister of music is on staff with the church. This IS his job so regardless his natural needs (i.e. mortgage, car note, utility bills) get paid for by the church. No loss there. Our musicians that we use are NOT our own. We outsource. Yup we sure do, they are from various UPCI churches accross America and when there are major performances like this, they get flown in and paid to play for us. So their needs are taking care of as well.

I opted to talk on this site because I dont want to look like an individual that is sowing any seeds of discord amongst other choir members by being a busy body and asking what other people feel about this. I guess for now, I can only think about myself and my own needs and leave everyone else to make their own decisions. As someone said earlier, for those that can go GREAT but for everyone else, you just have to miss out on this one.

I'd say 85% of our choir is not use to traveling to these type of functions, for them THIS IS a once in a lifetime deal and so most will probably be willing to take off, leave their families and go to New York City. I personally just might be in the minority of people that have traveled all over the world, sung with the best of the best choirs out there, and on top of that I am a New York City native, so thats home for me.

Again, I just wanted to open the floor up to discussion to see what others thought about this scenario thats all.

[Jeffrey]

When's the last time a music director has felt a passion for a city, and with a team went it with the purpose of planting a church, taking no salary, instead being about the Father's business. Seems like so many are looking for a cushy job where they can afford huge stage props, a nice salary and a comfy office. Maybe some of you can prove me wrong.

I'm proud of all the church planters these days. I'd love to see that mentality with my brothers and sisters who are gifted in the arts.

[Baron1710]

Where do the profits go from the sales of the recordings?

I would think that doing events that are more about exposure than ministry ought to be a paid event. Not that ministries should not be paid but in a situation like this somebody is making a profit while other sacrifice to create the product.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by PraiseHymn

You raise a valid point. Now, lets keep in mind, they will pay for our flight, they will pay for our food and they will pay for our hotel. HOWEVER, how do you deal with the missed days at work (your secular job)? How do you deal with the fact that you might not have the savings to draw from to make up for time lossed on your job.

The minister of music is on staff with the church. This IS his job so regardless his natural needs (i.e. mortgage, car note, utility bills) get paid for by the church. No loss there. Our musicians that we use are NOT our own. We outsource. Yup we sure do, they are from various UPCI churches accross America and when there are major performances like this, they get flown in and paid to play for us. So their needs are taking care of as well.

I opted to talk on this site because I dont want to look like an individual that is sowing any seeds of discord amongst other choir members by being a busy body and asking what other people feel about this. I guess for now, I can only think about myself and my own needs and leave everyone else to make their own decisions. As someone said earlier, for those that can go GREAT but for everyone else, you just have to miss out on this one.

I'd say 85% of our choir is not use to traveling to these type of functions, for them THIS IS a once in a lifetime deal and so most will probably be willing to take off, leave their families and go to New York City. I personally just might be in the minority of people that have traveled all over the world, sung with the best of the best choirs out there, and on top of that I am a New York City native, so thats home for me.

Again, I just wanted to open the floor up to discussion to see what others thought about this scenario thats all.

Well, since this was a choir competition, paying musicians to come in makes sense. But often we do that for conferences too. I struggle with this, finding the best answer for this in the 21st Century. Is it a ministry or a vocation? Guys making a living traveling wherever a check is? Ministry is not guided by the dollar, but the dollar is made available for the sake of the ministry. It seems things are rather backwards. Should we dismiss musicians and call it just a vocation, and other minstries less of a vocation? Does anyone else see the conflict here?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by PraiseHymn

You raise a valid point. Now, lets keep in mind, they will pay for our flight, they will pay for our food and they will pay for our hotel. HOWEVER, how do you deal with the missed days at work (your secular job)? How do you deal with the fact that you might not have the savings to draw from to make up for time lost on your job.

The minister of music is on staff with the church. This IS his job so regardless his natural needs (i.e. mortgage, car note, utility bills) get paid for by the church. No loss there. Our musicians that we use are NOT our own. We outsource. Yup we sure do, they are from various UPCI churches accross America and when there are major performances like this, they get flown in and paid to play for us. So their needs are taking care of as well.

I opted to talk on this site because I dont want to look like an individual that is sowing any seeds of discord amongst other choir members by being a busy body and asking what other people feel about this. I guess for now, I can only think about myself and my own needs and leave everyone else to make their own decisions. As someone said earlier, for those that can go GREAT but for everyone else, you just have to miss out on this one.

I'd say 85% of our choir is not use to traveling to these type of functions, for them THIS IS a once in a lifetime deal and so most will probably be willing to take off, leave their families and go to New York City. I personally just might be in the minority of people that have traveled all over the world, sung with the best of the best choirs out there, and on top of that I am a New York City native, so thats home for me.

Again, I just wanted to open the floor up to discussion to see what others thought about this scenario thats all.

My thoughts are this:

1. If it's a problem for more than one person, it will have to be addressed in order for the group to perform together.

2. Complaints should normally come from individuals directly to the director, and not as a group effort to "unionize." LOL!!!! If the director/music dept. gets enough complaints about work that the size of the group will be significantly reduced, then trust me--they'll figure something out.

3. With that said, you should let your director know that it's a problem for you to miss more work, because you need the income, and leave it at that. If the music dept. doesn't offer to reimburse you, then you will probably have to miss out on tour. If enough people have the same problem, then you might be offered a solution.

If you have a lot of "seniority" in the group, and a good rapport with your director, you could tactfully bring up the idea of some sort of minimal reimbursement for those who work, and also keep the scheduling as tight as possible so as to minimize missing work. For example, if you're going to be singing on a Saturday night, you don't all need to fly out on Thursday. You can fly out late Friday night or early Saturday, and have time to check into hotels and practice prior to Saturday evening. Fly back Sunday, and you've missed zero work. Granted, you might be tired, but that's par for the course. If the church or the host is going to reimburse you for missed work, they should only be covering travel and performance time--not days of sight seeing before and after.

[Bella1]

IMO. EVERYONE should get paid. Not just the musicians, soloist, choir leader. If one gets paid, you should ALL get paid. No exceptions. BUT...don't bring family/friends that is not singing and have them expect to get paid also. No one is more important than the other. Treat all the same.

[Nitehawk013]

I know churches that will bring in a "Big name Evangelist" and pay the man's airfare, hotel and give him over $1000 for one Sunday.

Then those same churches turn around and bring in singers or choirs for special services or such and give them a heaping pile of jack squat for their travel, accomodation and ministry.

Why is one ox worthy of pay and not the other? If you ask a a choir to give up work, travel x number of miles and minister to your congregation...then you owe them no less than you would owe that evangelist you had to have. Otherwise you are saying their ministry is worthless. It has no value. Make sure you pay the preacher, but who cares about the choir members who had to give up work to be there right?

[Hoovie]

I have not read this thread but I would say "no" to paying the entire choir, unless it is from money earned in the events themselves.

I do however acknowledge the fabulous opportunity your chior has and I would certainly do it. If that means missing work and difficulty in making ends meet, voice your opinion to the church and choir leadership. Surely their are others in the church that can help releive the financial strains.

[Hoovie]

Also, this is a very worthy cause to give to by the chior members and others for intended financial contribution to the church.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by PraiseHymn

You raise a valid point. Now, lets keep in mind, they will pay for our flight, they will pay for our food and they will pay for our hotel. HOWEVER, how do you deal with the missed days at work (your secular job)? How do you deal with the fact that you might not have the savings to draw from to make up for time lossed on your job.

The minister of music is on staff with the church. This IS his job so regardless his natural needs (i.e. mortgage, car note, utility bills) get paid for by the church. No loss there. Our musicians that we use are NOT our own. We outsource. Yup we sure do, they are from various UPCI churches accross America and when there are major performances like this, they get flown in and paid to play for us. So their needs are taking care of as well.

I opted to talk on this site because I dont want to look like an individual that is sowing any seeds of discord amongst other choir members by being a busy body and asking what other people feel about this. I guess for now, I can only think about myself and my own needs and leave everyone else to make their own decisions. As someone said earlier, for those that can go GREAT but for everyone else, you just have to miss out on this one.

I'd say 85% of our choir is not use to traveling to these type of functions, for them THIS IS a once in a lifetime deal and so most will probably be willing to take off, leave their families and go to New York City. I personally just might be in the minority of people that have traveled all over the world, sung with the best of the best choirs out there, and on top of that I am a New York City native, so thats home for me.

Again, I just wanted to open the floor up to discussion to see what others thought about this scenario thats all.

They are paying for your plane, hotel, and food and you still want more... If you really can't afford to go or don't feel like pushing your finances because you've done been to alot of major events then maybe you shouldn't go.

Now Baron did make a good point about how if others are profiting off the choir then you probably should be compensated more. However it isn't like anyone went out, hired you and is refusing to pay you what they said. They never said they would pay you. They wanted volunteers and that is what they got for the most part. If most of the choir members don't have a problem with not being "compensated" for going on this trip then it's probably best not to make an issue out of it. The small minority that cannot afford to go should figure out solutions independently; maybe not go, maybe ask for help, or something else. Not to mention the complexities of trying to compensate everyone for how much work they missed.