Church Planting and Expansion - Page 2

Digging4Truth · #11 10-27-2009, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Thank you!

It starts with a change in our world view. First it was the church (the body of Christ) that mets in so-n-so's house. Today is it is known as Pastor's so-n-so's church (both building and people). The shift in speech is not that great, but devastating. The change in mindset promotes ownership. Then, when one adds to the mix the UPCI required teaching that the sheep are to pay a personal tribute to their shepherd, the question of ownership of sheep become a financial issue of a very personal nature. It becomes a question of protecting a financial resource.

It is not a question of how many souls have been added to the kingdom of God, rather the question has become how many tithe payers have we added to our congregation?

That's why numbers do count, and in many places 'sheep stealing' is a hanging offence - and fellowship with other local assemblies is frequently forbidden and any new churches must move way down the road from us (there are not enough lost people to go around)..

Well said....

No number of band aids will bring a cure so great as if one were to quit cutting themselves.

Withdrawn · #12 10-27-2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Thank you!

It starts with a change in our world view. First it was the church (the body of Christ) that mets in so-n-so's house. Today is it is known as Pastor's so-n-so's church (both building and people). The shift in speech is not that great, but devastating. The change in mindset promotes ownership. Then, when one adds to the mix the UPCI required teaching that the sheep are to pay a personal tribute to their shepherd, the question of ownership of sheep become a financial issue of a very personal nature. It becomes a question of protecting a financial resource.

It is not a question of how many souls have been added to the kingdom of God, rather the question has become how many tithe payers have we added to our congregation?

That's why numbers do count, and in many places 'sheep stealing' is a hanging offence - and fellowship with other local assemblies is frequently forbidden and any new churches must move way down the road from us (there are not enough lost people to go around)..

I'm in AWE of the wisdom expressed in this post! You have a gift for putting your thoughts (and the thoughts of so many) into words.

Sam · #13 10-27-2009, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

...
That's why numbers do count, and in many places 'sheep stealing' is a hanging offence - and fellowship with other local assemblies is frequently forbidden and any new churches must move way down the road from us (there are not enough lost people to go around)..

Except some times some UPC "officials" promote starting a "rival" UPC church to draw members from an established UPC church.

commonsense · #14 10-27-2009, 10:47 PM

Sad doesn't begin to cover it.

The following scenario happened in a city we used to live in.
The pastor of the UPC church began to see issues in a new light and eventually told the congregation he felt led to step out on his own.

The church was given a vote and only a few wished to remain part of the UPC. Therefore the building went with the majority. (An older brick building that was paid for; not sure of size, probably seats 200-250.)

A year or two later this pastor left. The church stayed independent and found another pastor.

In the meantime, since there was no longer a UPC church, the organization sponsored a minister to go there and start a church.
They tried to get the current independent group to give them the building.

The UPC group ended up renting a store front.

A couple years ago they got their own building from the "church in a day" program. It's in a small town nearby.

commonsense · #15 10-27-2009, 11:07 PM

As to the people.....10+ years later.......
Some stayed and still go to the independent work. (this number has dwindled)
Some returned to the fold but found it wasn't the same, and they quit going .

To the best of my knowledge there isn't any fellowship between the two churches.
But since the "saints" have known each other for years many of them still have some contact on their own.

A.W. Bowman · #16 10-28-2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

Except some times some UPC "officials" promote starting a "rival" UPC church to draw members from an established UPC church.

There is no way to account for the insanity of [any] organizational politics.

NewLife · #17 01-17-2012, 02:11 PM

Slow Growing= BIBLICAL?? What type of nonsense is that? Sounds like you trapped yourself!!

By the way an average TREE grows from the about 1/2 an inch to over 1 FOOT in less than a year!! THAT'S HUGE GROWTH!!

The book of ACTS church was by no means a slow growing church!

http://www.newlifegg.com

Church Naples

Aquila · #18 01-17-2012, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

Recently my brother-in-law was visiting from a neighboring state. I asked him, "How many UPC churches are there in ________ (the name of his city)?" He replied that there was only one. Surprised, I asked him, "Which one?" because I thought there were two, possibly three. He explained what happened.

There was a UPC church there which had been there for years. I had visited it a few times many years ago. Last time I was there was back in the 1970's. It had been pastored by the same man (Bro. A) for many years. The local district officials sent in a minister (I'll call him Bro. B) to "split the church" or "plant a rival UPC church." Bro. B began to visit all the members to build up support. Then he went to Bro. A and asked him to allow them to hold meetings in his building until they could get a building of their own. Bro. A refused. Bro. B took the matter to a secular court and it was decided there that the people who would be making up the new congregation had supported that church for years so they had a right to use the building for their meetings if they wanted to. Bro. A locked the door. Bro. B and his members removed the door to gain access and held meetings there. In time Bro. B and his group were able to get another building and moved. So, for a while there were two competing UPC churches there. Since then, Bro. B has joined the WWPF.

Many years ago (before I visited there) a group had left Bro. A and formed a competing church a few blocks away. The pastor (when I preached several times in the 1960's and 1970's) was with the AMA (Apostolic Ministerial Alliance). The AMA pastor died and now that church is either independent (in fellowship with the AMF) or pastored by an AMF minister.

Meanwhile, Bro. A has died and has been replaced by another UPC minister.

So, the church pastored by Bro. A for all those years is still UPC. The more recent split is no longer UPC but WPF. The older split is no longer AMA (I don't think that organization is still active) but is now AMF. The ALJC church in that town where I have preached back in the 1970's is no longer active. I don't know who is in that building now.

It has always bothered me the way Apostolic Churches have fought and split and refused to fellowship one another.

My friends... this is cultic behavior.

KeptByTheWord · #19 01-17-2012, 02:31 PM

As long as pastors and organizations of any denomination feel it is "their church" and not God's church, this will go on. Light is dawning in many hearts and people are leaving typical church settings in greater numbers, and house churches seem to be where God is moving many people to. As it was in the early church!

As long as people want to think they are part of "so and so's" church, and the pastor/organization feels that they are building a kingdom "for themselves" or for their family, then the churches will continue to go on fighting amongst themselves.

People are waking up to this kind of nonsense, and hopefully more and more will realize that the church belongs to Christ, HE is the head, and we are all the body.

It is time for believers to stand up and walk away from this kind of nonsense, and ask the Lord to bring you into a body of believers who know who their HEAD is ... it is JESUS!!! (and it is won't be Pastor so and so...)

Then and only then will we see revival as in the days of the early church!

Jermyn Davidson · #20 01-17-2012, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I would say this...

Those who "sheep steal" are a bad lot.

Those who consider "sheep stealing" to be an issue must feel a sense of ownership over God's people & heritage.

How much more can you be a Lord over God's heritage than if you feel ownership over said heritage.

When both sides drop the "they're mine" concept then a lot of perceived walls will finally go away.

A certain sense of "ownership" is definitely appropriate.

I would expect my Pastor to love me as a person and a soul. I would expect my Pastor to be passionate about me and the other sheep of the flock that GOD has given him to shepherd.

I thank GOD for the good Pastors I have had-- Pastors that knew me, and loved me. My only problem with most of the Pastors I've had is that I never felt comfortable enough to let them know everything-- not that we have to do that, but it sure is nice to be able to be an open book to GOD and others, without fear of rejection, judgment or worse from the humans (yes Pastors are human) that GOD has us around.