This post is the perfect example of over indulging in Scriptural ideals, leaving people in the wake of a religious menace. Before long, you'll have a denomination in the making.
No offense, but this is the reason the Bible becomes the absolute basis for confusing people.
Why is it that we (humans, people, man) continue to dissect stories to the point of creating typologies that "fit" our niche.
Prophecy teachers do this. It never ends, pounding away until nonsense makes sense. Just watch this quick video. This is what happens when we go over the EDGE! LOL
Sorry.. not interested in watching mockery. Using the Bible to illustrate biblical principles is not only sound methodology but it encourages people a whole lot more than:
"Repent and get Baptized or you'll split hell"
"You wimmen better quit wearing pants or you'll split hell"
"Bless gawd you better not smoke drink or cuss or you'll split hell"
"The tribulation is any day now, yep they is selling red heifers in isreal so you watch out unless you want to split hell"
I don't think most people find illustrations confusing, fact of the matter is that nothing in the book is "just there because" and using Elisha and the axehead to illustrate how Jesus pulled us out and put us in heavenly places with himself is just fine.
Sorry.. not interested in watching mockery. Using the Bible to illustrate biblical principles is not only sound methodology but it encourages people a whole lot more than:
"Repent and get Baptized or you'll split hell"
"You wimmen better quit wearing pants or you'll split hell"
"Bless gawd you better not smoke drink or cuss or you'll split hell"
"The tribulation is any day now, yep they is selling red heifers in isreal so you watch out unless you want to split hell"
I don't think most people find illustrations confusing, fact of the matter is that nothing in the book is "just there because" and using Elisha and the axehead to illustrate how Jesus pulled us out and put us in heavenly places with himself is just fine.
No offense intended, I just disagree.
Sorry if this meant mockery to you. Just feel a good laugh helps to lighten up all parties involved. Brother Billy Cole could bring the house down with good hearted humor, and it was amazing how anger diminished into putting your arm around your brother.
I see you didn't address the prophecy part of my post. After 30 years of watching these types of teachers fall all over themselves by making the Scripture say what they want it to say, I have to chuckle at our mortal attempt to "Hebrew" and "Greek" everything. We swallow a camel and strain at a gnat.
What happened to common sense and simple right and wrong? I keep telling people, "Get away, get into Creation, and behold the wonder of God's Handiwork!" Romans tells us, "The invisible things of God are CLEARLY seen by the things that are made."
This just takes us back to the beginning, when there was no Bible. Oh, how I wish for that day!!! The Bible has become a WAR DRUM!!
I like the topic and like the typologies. Thanks Brothers. I am working on my thesis and
coming here this am gave me some other spiritual things to think about besides my
work.
Brother Atkinson have you preached this at your church? Its really good.
No offense but I'm always bothered by this. I know the same type of thing is done in literature classes when they examine a story. It's like every piece has some greater significance. However, I'm persuaded that the authors of those stories rarely had such an intent. I suppose it's through this same idea that I view taking bible stories and applying them so haphazardly to everything. That is while it certainly makes an interesting point to preach on when taking a story such as this and tying it into the resurrection or some other important biblical principle, it never adds anything new to those principles. The reason it never adds anything new is because we map the story to our beliefs, so that ALMOST whatever belief structure one comes with, there will be a way to map a story to some belief there. I guess all I'm trying to say is be careful and do not let such connections persuade you about the truth of anything. Preach on them all you want (they certainly make interesting messages), but don't take seeing such connections as a sign from God that they actually exist.
I like the topic and like the typologies. Thanks Brothers. I am working on my thesis and
coming here this am gave me some other spiritual things to think about besides my
work.
Brother Atkinson have you preached this at your church? Its really good.
Not yet, but I feel it coming when the oportunity presents...Until this thread I never considered the lost axehead in this perspective, I was blessed by it while it came out!
Great! Here here at home we have an ongoing Bible discussion. Friday nights we have Greek
class at the church and on Wednesday nights we have a class on the book
of Romans. It is great to be around people who love to discuss Bible.
It is a blessing. I love to hear others thoughts on what they study.
Truly Iron does sharpen Iron.
No offense but I'm always bothered by this. I know the same type of thing is done in literature classes when they examine a story. It's like every piece has some greater significance. However, I'm persuaded that the authors of those stories rarely had such an intent. I suppose it's through this same idea that I view taking bible stories and applying them so haphazardly to everything. That is while it certainly makes an interesting point to preach on when taking a story such as this and tying it into the resurrection or some other important biblical principle, it never adds anything new to those principles. The reason it never adds anything new is because we map the story to our beliefs, so that ALMOST whatever belief structure one comes with, there will be a way to map a story to some belief there. I guess all I'm trying to say is be careful and do not let such connections persuade you about the truth of anything. Preach on them all you want (they certainly make interesting messages), but don't take seeing such connections as a sign from God that they actually exist.
Illustrations are a vehicle very useful in driving home a truth or bringing to peoples mind a truth that they know but sometimes move to the back-burner of their mind.
This isn't the same as "overspiritualizing" which can be a problem and a deception, but to be honest I have encountered more "over-carnalizing the word than the other.
Besides, type and shadow in the Old Testament is a very real, very God ordained facet of the scriptures.
In the Old is the New concealed,
In the New is the Old revelaed.
Nothing in the OT is there to take up space on the page. Sure we have to be careful, but you have to do that crossing the street. As my Dad once said, "three things to keep out of the hands of a fool: A Bible, a Bottle and a gun"
Illustrations are a vehicle very useful in driving home a truth or bringing to peoples mind a truth that they know but sometimes move to the back-burner of their mind.
This isn't the same as "overspiritualizing" which can be a problem and a deception, but to be honest I have encountered more "over-carnalizing the word than the other.
Besides, type and shadow in the Old Testament is a very real, very God ordained facet of the scriptures.
In the Old is the New concealed,
In the New is the Old revelaed.
Nothing in the OT is there to take up space on the page. Sure we have to be careful, but you have to do that crossing the street. As my Dad once said, "three things to keep out of the hands of a fool: A Bible, a Bottle and a gun"
Moving that truth to the front part of the mind is what many Apostolics refuse to do. I have seen post after post on this forum become ignored when FACTS are revealed that challenge our "Religion". We let them (the facts) burn on the burner!
Type and Shadow from the Old Testament to the New is entirely based on Denomination, Culture, Interpretation, Education, all formed into an idea. If this type of Scriptural play was simple, or sound, the Orthodox Jews would accept the New Testament as Holy Writ and would have never crucified Jesus.
There are so many vast differences between the Old and the New, in most respects comparison is futile. We can turn anything into a “Type and Shadow” if we try hard enough, and this must be avoided if we are to truly understand the truth about God, people, and history. Our gravest problems as humans are, we are looking for something perfect. If our perfect solution is found to be flawed, we panic. This is where we can fall into the pit of reaching for anything to keep our “Dream” alive. People from all walks of life do this. This is why Nations rise against Nations, dying for their belief.
Take for instance WAR. Old Testament theology is; God was with His people when they went to battle, counting it a great victory only if ALL the people in the City were slaughtered (Men, women, children, animals). Brother, have you been to WAR? Have you observed photos of bodies in piles or in bags? Have you ever killed a child? Has your pastor drawn a sword and hacked a King from another Nation into pieces in front of his whole church? Our problem: Out of Sight, Out of Mind!!! This is way too brutal!! Just give me a Type and Shadow, not what really happened!
I spent 6 years in the Marines. I was trained to KILL, and to LOVE to KILL! Blood was our game. The enemy must die! After great reflection, and many years gone by, I realized how we’ve devastated the World by our War machine and how we have used military men and women as cannon fodder to protect our perfect dream. We put our 18 year old boys on the beach to be blown away, while they cry for their mother and beg for another breath. They cross over into enemy lines, only to fight men just like them, with families who believe they are doing the right thing, wanting to protect their dream. We kill, kill, and kill. And, we turn to the Old Testament for the Faith to do so, while the blood keeps darkening the soils of our World, by Nations that call themselves Christian. David and Goliath becomes reality. Samuel slicing the King into pieces with brutal force gives us the stamp to do it ourselves.
We esteem David as being a great King and Hero, yet he went from city to city, leaving in his wake nothing but bloodshed and murder. He killed husbands, wives, children, his hands dripping with the blood of people like you and me. If we were alive at this time, our Nation might be marked as a target by Old Testament Jews, coming after us in the Name of their God.
The New Testament has none of this until the Book of Revelation. We are commended to LOVE our enemies and to turn the other cheek. Jesus came to this earth reaching to help the poor, the Gentile, the outcast, the leper, and the rejects. No sword was drawn, only the desire to give drink to the thirsty, and food to the hungry. For God so LOVED the World!!
The God of the Old Testament doesn’t seem to fit this niche, because man is responsible for writing this Book that is plagued with error, misconceptions, and pages that don’t even have an author attached to them. Not a single page of the Bible is in its original form, and nothing but copies are what we use to understand a God who is beyond any mans idea, formed religion, or farfetched dream.
All this chopping, mixing, and rolling of the dice with the Bible, leaves so many in confusion because every Religion does this. Pray, saints, Pray!! We’ll get this right!! People spin their head, and wonder, who is right?? Are we making the Scripture say what we want it to say?? Does the ball and chain of our past keep us in the prison of “Out of sight, out of Mind”?
We put the hand up, "I don't want to hear it!" Just give me a Type and Shadow, or something that isn't real.
NotforSale I totally agree. I guess I would say it this way... What purpose does illustrating principles by using these stories serve? It is an attempt to tie the old and new testaments together. To show a unified and clear mind of God. I think this is the biggest draw to using such illustrations. That and it always makes a message sound more mystical.
As far as actually teaching the principles I do not think the use of such illustration devices add anything. I mean what can a type and shadow really offer us when the true image is right before our eyes? Many objects emit similar shadows, how can it be known exactly what is being shadowed. How can it even be known if a shadow exists? Is the fact that scripture is there enough to mean some passage must of necessity map to some principle found in of the new testament? Further, we have no criteria for objectively deciphering when God truly meant something to be a type and shadow and when he did not. (Other than a few cases explicitly mentioned in the bible of course)
I think we ought all to be very careful in the things we attribute to God. To me it seems that it diminishes God's glory when we make any claim about him as certain truth when we cannot really be sure of it's truth ourselves. This can be seen many times in people attributing God to their recovery when in fact God probably didn't even intervene in the situation. Now they should give thanks for their recovery, but not as if God intervened when he may not have. For if they say he did and he did not then they have bore false witness against God, right? Likewise, any scripture illustration of him that we use should not be claimed as if it is a true type and shadow when it isn't for certain that it is. Scriptural illustrations should be used, but only with care in explaining that the verse used as the illustration does not necessarily carry the meaning we are using it to illustrate. For if we claim something is a type and shadow when it is not then we have bore false witness against the scripture, right?
So getting back to the original thought, it seems to me that such illustrations may actually cause more harm than good. They certainly have a form of truth in that they can illustrate it, but unless we go to great lengths to ensure whatever true meaning they have is preserved after we are done using them (whether we know that meaning or not), then the use of such illustrations may very well be more detrimental than we realize even though our purpose is good.
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