The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I have paid saint's rent, made car payments, bought them clothes, carried them groceries, took them to the doctor and aoid the bill, bought tires for their cars, fixed their transmissions, drove them across states to visit their sick relatives in hospitals, ran the tires off my car visiting hospitals-nursing homes, jails, senior saint's homes to check on them when their kids didn't have the time. Sorry this pushed my button.

This has been my experience with every pastor I've had. Some of the most giving people I've ever known in my life.

[Truthseeker]

I don't we should say pastors do such and such, we should say some pastors.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by Stephanas

Wow! Just.... WOW! What a colossal waste of bandwidth!

A disigenuous misrepresentation of Paul's teaching on support for the ministry.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 (AMP)

17 Let the elders who perform the duties of their office well be considered doubly worthy of honor [and of adequate financial support], especially those who labor faithfully in preaching and teaching.

18 For the Scripture says, You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain, and again, The laborer is worthy of his hire. [Deut 25:4; Luke 10:7.]


Philippians 4:14-17 (NIV)
14 Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. 15 Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; 16 for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid again and again when I was in need. 17 Not that I am looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be credited to your account.


While Paul chose not to exercise his right to support, he did emphatically contend that he had a right of support from those he ministered to:

1 Corinthians 9:3-16 (NLT)

3 This is my answer to those who question my authority. 4 Don't we have the right to live in your homes and share your meals? 5 Don't we have the right to bring a Christian wife with us as the other disciples and the Lord's brothers do, and as Peter does? 6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have to work to support ourselves?

7 What soldier has to pay his own expenses? What farmer plants a vineyard and doesn't have the right to eat some of its fruit? What shepherd cares for a flock of sheep and isn't allowed to drink some of the milk? 8 Am I expressing merely a human opinion, or does the law say the same thing? 9 For the law of Moses says, "You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain." Was God thinking only about oxen when he said this? 10 Wasn't he actually speaking to us? Yes, it was written for us, so that the one who plows and the one who threshes the grain might both expect a share of the harvest.

11 Since we have planted spiritual seed among you, aren't we entitled to a harvest of physical food and drink? 12 If you support others who preach to you, shouldn't we have an even greater right to be supported? But we have never used this right. We would rather put up with anything than be an obstacle to the Good News about Christ.

13 Don't you realize that those who work in the temple get their meals from the offerings brought to the temple? And those who serve at the altar get a share of the sacrificial offerings. 14 In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it. 15 Yet I have never used any of these rights. And I am not writing this to suggest that I want to start now. In fact, I would rather die than lose my right to boast about preaching without charge.

This is an excellent response. Paul was encountering, early on, many people questioning his motives, so he went above and beyond on this issue to avoid that stigma.

Though we had this right, we have not availed ourselves of it, but have worked with our hands to bear our own charges, lest any of you should think that we preached the Gospel merely to procure a temporal support, and so be prejudiced against us, and thus prevent our success in the salvation of your souls.

I think 1C makes a good point about the role of the evangelist though.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Well....let's start by examining what these scriptures DON'T say:

A. They do not say anything about MONEY
B. They do not say anything about TITHING

What they do is advocate some form of support to those who labor in the Gospel...I personally do not know ANYONE who is a true christian who would not want to help support the ministry.

Let's not forget verse 11 either, where Paul basically says he would rather "Put up with anything" then be an obsticle to the Good News"

Bottom line (Coming from a minister mind you); is that our AMERICANIZED way of "doing Church" is FAR different then in the Apostles day. With large buildings, expensive programs etc., etc., - they often do exactly the opposite of what Paul was talking about in this verse.

I don't think our brother on here was misrepresenting anything, nor did he say EVERY minister - I did not see any broad brushing going on here... it is a fact that not all pastors are choosen of the Good Shepherd - but are hirlings - that's not a stretch to say....it's a fact.

Uh... read them again. Look up what was intended with the world "double honor". Come on guys. You can do better than this. Reading into the text... the part about hirelings, was not about being supported by giving. Is that how you interpret that really???

Also, don't throw in 10 points to make the case of 1. For example, many of us will agree large buildings have drawbacks, but when you include that in this argument, you cloud the simpleness of what we are talking about.

[GrowingPains]

1 Corinthians 9 says plenty on this -- and I'll post the Message translation. What's important to note is that Paul, to the Corinthians, voluntarily accepted nothing from them to help substantiate his ministry and influence to them. That he did that does not mean the ministry does not live off the giving. Interestingly, through, tithing is not mentioned in this Chapter where it would seem to naturally fit

1 Corinthians 9:3-14
I'm not shy in standing up to my critics. We who are on missionary assignments for God have a right to decent accommodations, and we have a right to support for us and our families. You don't seem to have raised questions with the other apostles and our Master's brothers and Peter in these matters. So, why me? Is it just Barnabas and I who have to go it alone and pay our own way? Are soldiers self-employed? Are gardeners forbidden to eat vegetables from their own gardens? Don't milkmaids get to drink their fill from the pail?

8-12I'm not just sounding off because I'm irritated. This is all written in the scriptural law. Moses wrote, "Don't muzzle an ox to keep it from eating the grain when it's threshing." Do you think Moses' primary concern was the care of farm animals? Don't you think his concern extends to us? Of course. Farmers plow and thresh expecting something when the crop comes in. So if we have planted spiritual seed among you, is it out of line to expect a meal or two from you? Others demand plenty from you in these ways. Don't we who have never demanded deserve even more?

12-14But we're not going to start demanding now what we've always had a perfect right to. Our decision all along has been to put up with anything rather than to get in the way or detract from the Message of Christ. All I'm concerned with right now is that you not use our decision to take advantage of others, depriving them of what is rightly theirs. You know, don't you, that it's always been taken for granted that those who work in the Temple live off the proceeds of the Temple, and that those who offer sacrifices at the altar eat their meals from what has been sacrificed? Along the same lines, the Master directed that those who spread the Message be supported by those who believe the Message.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Forget it these folks hate preachers. And could care less what the Bible says.
I have paid saint's rent, made car payments, bought them clothes, carried them groceries, took them to the doctor and aoid the bill, bought tires for their cars, fixed their transmissions, drove them across states to visit their sick relatives in hospitals, ran the tires off my car visiting hospitals-nursing homes, jails, senior saint's homes to check on them when their kids didn't have the time. Sorry this pushed my button.

When you say "you have paid" do you mean a disbursement from the local assembly's treasury?

[GrowingPains]

God help the spirits of men that aren't givers and spitefully harbor feelings of envy against ministry. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to be the trend in churches. As far as I'm concerned, if you can't honor your ministry through giving, find you someone who you can, or move on.

I know ministers have gotten a rap at living the "resort lifestyle", but let's not start measuring them up and analyzing their once-a-week golfing game. In this great country of wealth, let them be able to have recreation, just as you have your outlet. Likewise, ministers ought to be conscious about the modesty of their living and always showing, as an example, what giving looks like.

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by tbpew

When you say "you have paid" do you mean a disbursement from the local assembly's treasury?

Money he could have rightly kept for his own labors, that was given from the local assembly... and he gave it!

[n david]

My father was a Pastor. He helped those he could, but couldn't help everyone who came. Before crucifying Pastor's who may not assist someone, I'd suggest taking into account the situation. There were times when a saint, such as the one mentioned in the first post, had a need but the church simply didn't have the resources to help.

My current Pastor worked FT until he was recently laid off due to the economy. The church has helped many people financially.

For the most part, Pastors I've known have been helpful depending on the need and ability to meet the need.

[1Corinth2v4]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Forget it these folks hate preachers. And could care less what the Bible says.
I have paid saint's rent, made car payments, bought them clothes, carried them groceries, took them to the doctor and aoid the bill, bought tires for their cars, fixed their transmissions, drove them across states to visit their sick relatives in hospitals, ran the tires off my car visiting hospitals-nursing homes, jails, senior saint's homes to check on them when their kids didn't have the time. Sorry this pushed my button.

Before you go on a tangent I would suggest you reread my post. Furthermore, I'm skeptical of men who can address certain post and ignore others. I'm still awaiting your answer on our other thread. I've never seen a Pentecostal avoid my questions, but there's a first for everything.


I will now address other people's post on here.

Thank you and good day.