Who do we Trust?

[Scott Hutchinson]

To me I like to read several bibles for the sake of comparison,I don't really for the message of the living bible too much.
I like the amplied,and believe it or not I read the dreaded RSV.

[SeekingOne]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

I'm doing something I should have done a long time ago; Challenge my Faith with questions people are too afraid to ask.

I ask myself this; Would I have followed leaders like Jim Jones in the younger years of my life, while I was deeply searching for God, and extremely gulliable?

As far as the Jim Jones thing goes, THAT is the problem with getting passionate about an interpretation you or anyone has of the Bible instead of just reading what it says. Hold tight to what is obviously there, and then keep what personally applies to you to yourself.

Men make obeying God complicated, because they put so much importance on interpretation. Men want to add things that we need to do to be saved and be pleasing to God, just like the Pharisees did.

God said that we are not really in need of man teaching us anything about Him, He said His word is inside us, if we are filled with Him. It is man that wants to come up with a list of do's and don'ts that are not for everyone. They want to make sure they are saved (a check list), instead of just having a relationship with Jesus so that He will know them at the end. (Men also like to be judges instead of letting God be the judge.)

I think I might get blasted for writing all the above. Even what I wrote can be misinterpreted. But I think most will get what I am trying to express. I like Jim's way of expressing how our church "leaders" should be equipping us and helping us learn to feed ourselves. (Not to say we will ever not need each other to get the speck out of our eyes! But do they have to be "leaders?")

We don't have to be worried about being led astray by anyone, if we can just look at the scriptures and have a relationship with God. He will guide us if we let Him, but just like those that wanted Saul to be king, we want someone in human form to lead us instead. :-/

I personally think Paul would not have been so frustrated with the early Christian church if they would have just followed their heart. We get so wrapped up in wanting man's approval, that we can't see what God wants of us.

Any church that lifts up men and doctrines as if they should not be challenged, is a Jim Jones waiting to happen. I don't mean he will kill people with Kool Aid, but those leaders or religions might just kill people's faith in God and replace it with faith in them and their religion.

To clarify, I am not saying there should not be all the ministries that the Bible speaks of, I am just saying our trust must be in the Bible and not in man's interpretation of the Bible. Let God be the judge, and we will know His people by their love for His people and the fruits of the Spirit that they have. (Instead of "knowing them" because they agree with our pet doctrines.)

[Michael The Disciple]

As far as the Jim Jones thing goes, THAT is the problem with getting passionate about an interpretation you or anyone has of the Bible instead of just reading what it says. Hold tight to what is obviously there, and then keep what personally applies to you to yourself.

It was not an interpretation of the Bible that made Jim Jones false. It was the DISCARDING of it all together. He threw it away and followed his own heart.

[SeekingOne]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

It was not an interpretation of the Bible that made Jim Jones false. It was the DISCARDING of it all together. He threw it away and followed his own heart.

Yes, that is what Jim Jones did. But the people that followed him did not read the Bible and trust what is in there alone. They trusted a man that told them what he added to the Bible. It's the trust in men that want to tell people what they are supposed to believe, instead of God telling them, that gets people in trouble.

[oletime]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

I'm doing something I should have done a long time ago; Challenge my Faith with questions people are too afraid to ask.

I ask myself this; Would I have followed leaders like Jim Jones in the younger years of my life, while I was deeply searching for God, and extremely gulliable?

My first Pastor, who fell into adultery, was extremely rigid, had "strange" spiritual motives, and is no longer apostolic, did he have the potential to lead us into the dark side of religion (or did he lead me to that side, and I didn't know it)?

Am I so locked into the "Pentecostal" way of thinking, that to ponder another way of thinking would be considered demonic?

Is the King James Bible accurate? With historical reference now at our fingertips, we are finding fallacy, fault, and great manipulation coming from our past. To conceive the King James as the "Word of God", we must preceive who wrote it, why, when, and how it applies to us who want truth. To lock God into this Book, we may find this has completely endangered our ability to comprehend who God really is. Why, because MAN is all over this Book. Failure is intertwined into this interpretation, and that is a fact. To simply conclude, The Bible is the Tell All, this is the same theory behind men like Jim Jones. Accept this or DIE!

If we as Oneness people don't beleive this, we are flawed and guilty of hiding the truth, creating our own cult of fear and oppression. The 47 Bishops responsible for translating the King James were cultured from Trinity doctrine, and bound by Catholic ideals. In fact, it is known, Hell in the form that we teach it comes from Catholisism. Also, England in the middle ages was entirely guilty of horrible atrocity against mankind in the name of religion! Why did people come to America? They wanted to escape Englands grasp upon their desire to ask questions.

To be honest, I see the world of religion becoming shaken by the need to really know God. Confining God to a Book, a Denomination, a Faith, men who claim to have revelation, this zeroing-in-affect is destroying our ability to learn about the One who created the Universe.

I could go on and on about this. I never thought I would ask these questions, because I was afraid. Afraid of the dictorial method of men who slam their fists on pulpits, portraying our God as one who will burn lost humanity in eternal fire for eternity. If this was true, why wasn't this mentioned in the Old Testament? How about all those of the past who had no idea this place ever existed? Is this our God of mercy, or is this the God of men?

I've seen over the last 30 years way to much justifying and not enough answering! We dodge the bullet, making the Bible answer our questions from traditional bondage, all because we can do this with Scripture. Why do you think there are so many different faiths in the World? They all think they are RIGHT, us included!

Our altars are becoming places of mixed ideas and unanswered dilemas. Who spoke in tongues and who didn't? Who got healed and who didn't? This person is spiritual because they shouted, danced, and then got injured when they fell down at church.

It's time to step into the real Light, and see the Real God of Ages! We can glean from the Bible, but we must question its authority, its origin, and what possible descrepencies do exist. You cannot, there is no way possible, to confine God to a Book with so much flaw! We will only go deeper into spiritual apostasy if we bar the One who made man, who loves man, and who reaches for man because we are so needy!

I hope this post will help someone out there who is in "Doubt". Don't be afraid! God LOVES you, like a Father loves his son or daughter!!

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[easter]

John 7:16 Jesus answered them,and said,My doctrine is not mine,but his that sent me.
John 7:17 If any man will do his will,he shall know of the doctrine,whether it be of God,or whether I speak of myself.

A seasoned Christian has different views and ideals when they read and study God's word.Everyone knows that down through the years of reading God's word a scripture will open up with understanding and in years past,this same scripture may not of had much meaning because it did not apply to your life at the time.A mature Christian has been weaned off of the Milk and is grounded in the deeper things of God.
A Baby Christian starts out as a Newborn taking only the milk.If someone is young in their walk with God,then to say the Bible is in error will surly be a stumbling block.If a Baby Christian can not trust the Bible as the inspired word of God how will they grow and thrive?Without trust there is no Faith,without Faith there is no Hope!

[NotforSale]

I appreciate all of the responses. I do read them and try to glean from even those I disagree with. My purpose of posting is to rid myself of doctrinal bondage. God desires relationship, void of the practices that make it impossible to serve Him.

We must think outside of those who disect the Word in every way imaginable, and who fall prey to "FIT" the Bible to the locked mind. This only confuses our hunger to find Him.

He is simple. He is real. And, He loves the lost.

Jesus walked away from the chaos of the crowd, going up to the mountain to pray. Can you imagine your pastor telling the congregation, "I'll be back in 40 days". Upon the mountain, perspective is clear, distance allowing contrast. In this contrast, real truth is seen. Christians today are caught up in the chaos of religion, and have become blind by too much complexity. God is complicated. Serving Him is buzzing with a million opinions. Again, who do we Trust????

I've spent some time on this mountain. Walking amongst His Creation, things really do come into view, and the heart is renewed. Romans 1:20, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

The release of being away from societal hype brings people to understanding themself, other people, while being awed at God's Handiwork. This can be an experience of being honest with ourselves and with God. Walking alone on a beach, or in a forest, we can utter words and shed tears with no hinderance of anyone watching us.

I think brutal honesty is our only hope in this. We must see, the men who wrote the Bible (or Scripture), were just that, MEN! They were no different than you or I. The fact is, a man wrote that we must trust in this Book as being God's Book. It doesn't matter whether you like that or not, it is the truth. What we consider to be God's Word, were simply letters that Paul had wrote to Churches. What authority concludes this?? Why did Pauls letters supersede other letters or documents with holy or inspired intention.

If you want to know the truth, my heart is set free over this one beautiful FACT; The Bible is NOT perfect!! Why, because men are the Author's, not God. God did not write the Bible, and, this really is our hope in the midst of our turmoil invovling religion.

It's funny, because I have asked many questions that no one can answer. Where would we be, or what would we do, if we had no access to a Bible??? Why is it that we act like that Bibles have always been around! Bibles are only a few centuries old. You will condemn many millineums of people by placing such blind hearted confidence in a Book you happened to be privaledged to have. This is false religion at its best! I'm saved, you're doomed!

The Bible is important and a great blessing to us, but confining God to it will lead us to further blood shed, War, hatred, and the prison of the Pharasee.

[Erasmus]

I'll be honest -- I've often had the same questions as you did, concerning the Bible. I mean, how arrogant of us to think that WE, as Christians, actually have the Word of God Himself? There are numerous other "religious" texts out there - the Bhagavad-Gita, the Qu'ran, the Talmud, etc. Where do WE get off thinking we have the only Word of God.

However, the more I studied this topic out, the more I realized that the Bible IS accurate. The more scientific discoveries (not scientific philosophies, like Evolution) that are made, the more it seems to prove the claims of the Bible, rather than disprove them.

There are references to texts above, but one of the best books that brought this out was The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell. It's been around for awhile, since the early 70's, but he goes through pages and pages of external proofs that bring out the Bible. It's a little dry, but it's pretty exhaustive.

I agree with you that there have been some translational errors over time -- how could there NOT be when you tranlsate any language into another -- but, by reading different versions of the same text, you can glean the correct meaning.

And, there will ALWAYS be questions that no one can answer. The purpose of the Bible is NOT to answer every question you have, but to answer the most important one -- how can I be saved, and how can I walk with my Creator?

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Erasmus

I'll be honest -- I've often had the same questions as you did, concerning the Bible. I mean, how arrogant of us to think that WE, as Christians, actually have the Word of God Himself? There are numerous other "religious" texts out there - the Bhagavad-Gita, the Qu'ran, the Talmud, etc. Where do WE get off thinking we have the only Word of God.

However, the more I studied this topic out, the more I realized that the Bible IS accurate. The more scientific discoveries (not scientific philosophies, like Evolution) that are made, the more it seems to prove the claims of the Bible, rather than disprove them.

There are references to texts above, but one of the best books that brought this out was The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell. It's been around for awhile, since the early 70's, but he goes through pages and pages of external proofs that bring out the Bible. It's a little dry, but it's pretty exhaustive.

I agree with you that there have been some translational errors over time -- how could there NOT be when you tranlsate any language into another -- but, by reading different versions of the same text, you can glean the correct meaning.

And, there will ALWAYS be questions that no one can answer. The purpose of the Bible is NOT to answer every question you have, but to answer the most important one -- how can I be saved, and how can I walk with my Creator?

Thanks, Erasmus, for your honest and approachable quote. It seems you have confronted the basic questions all of us deal with, even though they may threaten your current belief system.

I agree, the Bible is proven to be accurate in much, but there are still areas that leave us groping for an answer. For instance, theologians agree, the story of the Aduterous woman in the book of John was added centuries later, and is not in any of the original manuscripts (which are all copies, by the way). This alone leaves one in question, and somewhat violates our trust in the validaty of a Book we claim has no error.

Also, the Gospels present simular stories, which seem to be the same story, but explain the account differently. In one account, there is one demoniac healed by Jesus, and in another there is two (Matt 8, Mark 5, Luke 8). We explain these away with typical justifiable responses, protecting our belief strategy at any cost. Fear is what drives this, not a love for the truth. Also in question are; What really happened at the tomb of Jesus (who got there first, who saw what)? The account of feeding 4 or 5 thousand? Was Jesus angry or did he have compassion on the lepor? How many actually left Egypt, after bonage? (There are numerous "numerical" errors in the Old Testament)

Your final statements are also a part of this great dilema. How is a man to be saved? How does he walk before his Creator? These are probably the most disputed questions amongst us. Everyone has their opionion, based on how they interpret the Bible. I was in a discussion with one of the saints after church on Sunday. I asked him, "Was the thief on the cross saved?" His response was, "That man was at the right place at the right time." This has been my shallow answer in times past. This act of mercy was limited to this man, all because the Saviour had not died yet.

This nightmare of thinking places God in a position of being uncapable of hearing the cry of a man, who may be crying in his last breath for mercy, all because we are in a new dispensation. We somehow think, we've got to rush this person to a baptistry, scream in his ear, hoping he will speak in tongues, and then repent of every sin, otherwise FLAMES of HELL are waiting! If God is truly this way, none of us will be saved, because we have banished any hope of mercy for man in his fault or inability to comprehend the plan we think is perfect. They must accept our way, OR DIE!

I've said this before, and I'll say it again; This is False religion in its finest hour!

I'm not saying let's banish the Bible, or reject it's powerful infulence in our lives. I'm just saying, I think we need to revisit our motives, our faults, and breathe a sigh of relief, knowing the Bible, which was written by men, has error. Oh, how this gives me hope that God is not tangled up in our human mind. If He was, we are in serious trouble. We will never conclude who is right.

The Master of Heaven is pleading for man to come back to the Garden! Do you have a Garden, or does your answer come from a million ideas that lead a million directions? God is not complicated. His arms are open to the Prodical son! Dare we become his brother!

[Erasmus]

Scripturally, I can only find 17 people who made it into heaven (the 12 apostles, Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Lazarus (the poor man), and Jesus). To my knowledge, no one has been able to view the names found in the Book of Life, so we don't truly "know" who is going to heaven or not. Therefore, I can't put someone into hell or heaven. Thankfully, there is a perfect Creator who will do that some day.

However, I feel confident that I am serving God the way He wants based on what I read in the Bible. I believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God, because I HAVE to. If I believe that even one part of the Bible is fallible, then ALL of the Bible is questionable. And if ALL of the Bible is questionable, then I have to choose and pick which parts I want to follow -- which, I feel, can lead to more problems.

When I begin to question these things, I'm always brought back to the Scripture found in John 6:67 - 68 where Jesus asked the disciples, "Will you also go away?" to which Peter replied, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou has the words of eternal life."

I have read the critiques of the Bible, concerning John 8 and Mark 16, and I think these are explained well in The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict. I'm actually naive enough to believe that the Bible we have today is the Word of God, but I also believe that God is strong enough to preserve His word for us over the centuries.

As a side note, isn't interesting that Jesus walked on this earth for 33 1/2 years, and didn't write a thing down? He had the perfect opportunity to write down EXACTLY what He wanted us to know, but chose not to. I would argue it's because He wanted to work through men to give us what we need to find Him.

However, as I find myself probing myself deeper, I have come to realize that my belief in the Bible comes from much more than just argument and belief-- it truly comes from what I feel when I'm in God's Presence and what I feel when I study out His Word. If I didn't feel the way I do when I'm with God, then I don't think my beliefs would be nearly as strong.

And, there's an even simpler reason for why the thief gets to go to Paradise - because Jesus said so.