The Damage Of Constanstine.

[MomOfADramaQn]

The spirit of "I am your pastor you will do as I say"

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Well, shall we also bring up the heresies in the reformation as well? Constantine destroyed a lot and we are still having issues today. Sadly the reformation probably caused just as much pathetic heresy as the RCC. PAthetic all around really! Wow, what man does to truth.

Your statement is astounding. It was the Reformation that set the scene for Azusa, an outpour of the Holy Ghost not seen on this scale since Pentecost.
The Reformation, though imperfect, was the right direction. Shall we bring up our modern-day heresies?

[*AQuietPlace*]

On a different board (non-religious) someone asked a question about the difference between Catholics and Protestants. Someone posted an answer that included this:

Some of the things that Catholics do or believe in that many other Christians don't are-

<snip>

* that the Bible is an important way of knowing God's will, but that Tradition, which is the teaching of the Catholic church through the ages, is just as important
* that Catholics have the Fullness of the Gospel, and other Christians only have part of it.

The Catholic church doesn't teach that you must be "born again" in the way that some Christians mean it; they believe that you are born again when you are baptized.

I thought those points were interesting. We are similar in some ways.

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Your statement is astounding. It was the Reformation that set the scene for Azusa, an outpour of the Holy Ghost not seen on this scale since Pentecost.
The Reformation, though imperfect, was the right direction. Shall we bring up our modern-day heresies?

Maybe you can expound on this comment, I doubt what you say here but wish to give you some area to correct me.

How did the reformation set the scene for Azusa?

[GrowingPains]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

Maybe you can expound on this comment, I doubt what you say here but wish to give you some area to correct me.

How did the reformation set the scene for Azusa?

If you look at all this from a large picture view of history, you will see a progression that culminated in one of the largest outpourings of the Holy Ghost since Pentecost. The Protestant Reformation brought the doctrine of grace without works, the idea of "priesthood of all believers", it provoked men to print the Bible outside the Latin vulgate, so everyone could read it for themselves (including years later a group of Bible School students studying about the baptism of the Holy Ghost in Topeka). We hear about the Anabaptists, the Methodist and the Holiness Movement, the Great Awakenings and finally a culmination of a New Birth of Pentecost in Azusa, an event that has seismologically shattered the foundations of religion.

Reformation broke the glass, opened the door for protest, provoked and spawned personal devotion and study, and sparked hunger for God's word, rather than just depending on the priest and participating in rites as a duty.

Yes, it was flawed. Yes, Luther would fall over in his grave to see where we are today. But it was right, and a whole lot bigger than Luther.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Not all the RCC did was evil. The PR was a revolt against indulgences, then doctrine of salvation. But does that mean everything RCC was about was a lie? I don't think so personally.

I agree with your statement and at once, anything that appears distinctly rcc to me makes me want to vomit!

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Well, shall we also bring up the heresies in the reformation as well? Constantine destroyed a lot and we are still having issues today. Sadly the reformation probably caused just as much pathetic heresy as the RCC. PAthetic all around really! Wow, what man does to truth.

Ok, I'm baited.


What heresies were birthed out of the Reformation?

Not saying none were, just would like to know your thoughts behind this post.

[GrowingPains]

The RCC has taken sole possession of history and have claimed St. Peter as their own Pope. Does anyone know when the first official RCC gathering was? There's no demarcation in their own history books between Pentecost (or even Christ) and today. Interested if someone else has a history.

Yes, RCC had some evils. I think every generation has to do a "Spring Cleaning" and determine what needs to be reformed, keeping the main thing always the main thing.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by GrowingPains

Aquila, surely you don't feel this is wrong or bad? While I'm a fan of mixing things up with a casual mid-week -- or even on Sunday if one wishes, I think dressing up is a sensible option for a church, and not one we should write-off just because the RCC also did that. That's sort of like saying no make-up because Jezebel wore it. Know what I mean?

GrowingPains,

I'm for the Simple Church model. I believe that churches (assemblies) should be small (12-15 people on average) and meeting in homes. I don't believe in a single pastor governing a given group but rather a team of elders who are saints mature in the faith with a "ministry to pastor" not hold an office. I don't believe everyone should sit in a church meeting in a row of noses staring at the back of someone's head while on man "sermonizes", but rather these smaller fellowships should have chairs turned inward to face each other, the elders should come prepared to teach in turn and those saints in the group should be permitted to add their understandings, ask questions, and participate. I don't believe that children should be herded into "Sunday Schools" but rather they should be allowed to play outside, upstairs, or color in the floor while the group is meeting. As they watch adults mingle and share the Word of God they should be encouraged to participate. A child's religious education should be the sole realm of the parents... not a stranger in a rambunctious class. Lessons should be taught "life time" meaning life lessons at points where the lessons are to be learned with tenderness, love, and Scripture. The ministry shouldn't be salaried and full time, "mooching" off the tithes of the flock, but rather the guiding elders should work real jobs (ask Paul about tent making) so that they can preach the Gospel without charge and maintain a grip on reality. Since there isn't any "building" to worship, tithing is unnecessary but rather free will offerings are to be collected to assist with extra costs of ministry and to aid saints in need. Seeing my position regarding all this I see no need to "dress up". Apostolic Christians should have no need to appear to be something other than what they are 24/7.

Personally, I believe that the greatest hindrance to revival in America is the traditional church itself. Instead of equipping saints and setting them free to reach their communities, turning their homes into meeting places scattered throughout the city, the traditional church herds Christians into buildings, tells them to be quiet and listen. It teaches a spectator mentality. The "professional ministry" inadvertently causes many average saints to feel that they should leave the bulk of reaching this world on the hired professionals. Traditional church often causes Christians to want the music to move them, the preaching to entertain them, the building to identify them, and the "rule book standards" to sanctify them. Traditional church has become a big business. Most of our churches have a hand full of men who should have been released years ago to reach their world, but for the sake of sustaining a building and pastoral salaries these ever faithful saints have been held back. A pastor once told me point blank, "If I released every man with a call on his life, I'd loose the most devoted members we have (read devoted tithers). And where would my church be then?" So we have a generation of frustrated and burned out men who should be on the battlefields acting as cash cows for their pastor's vision. Pastors delude themselves into thinking their grand building will somehow become the spiritual center of their given community to the exclusion of neighboring churches (read competitors). And don't even get me started on the internal politics of organizational religion. The average American will tell you, they like Jesus and that they'd like to know more about Him. However, they don't trust and don't like what they see being billed as "the church".

It's time for a new paradigm. It's time for a network of Christian leaders to begin meeting in homes, multiplying these fellowships wherever a roof can be found. It's time we shift from being focused on growing the membership of our given church buildings and organizations to something bigger. It's time to become a "church without walls". A church where the vision is not to advance our religious building's membership and property (or our organization's influence) but rather to advance - the Kingdom.

The final stage in the Apostolic Reformation is dawning... and church as you know it will never be the same.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

What damage did the emeperor Constanstine,do to western Christianity by the things he did when was in power ?

Are we still feeling the effects of these changes in the church world today ?

Lots, and Yes!