Baptism from God's Perspective

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

But Steve you said that the water does not save you so how can you be lost If I am correct here you said the blood on calvery is what saved us not immersion....

The shed blood forgives and remits sins through faith I appropriate the blood through obeying the gospel. Part of that gospel is immersion in Jesus Name FOR the remission of sins and all who have not been immersed in Jesus Name do NOT have their sins remitted.

[KWSS1976]

So everytime you sin Steve you go get rebaptised?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

I was thinking about all the posts about baptism...you know whether it is important what the preacher says prior to baptism.

Let me challenge you to back away from your theology for a moment and think about a couple of points about the Body of Christ in general.

Two men - one is "trinity" and one is "oneness" both tell stories of how they had visitation from Jesus and that He spoke with them about their ministries about the times they lived in and so forth.

The men: Kenneth Hagin (the Senior one) and Chester Hensley

I have heard accounts of both men (Hensley in person and Hagin through books). Both claiming to have had several encounters with Jesus, yet neither of these men stated that Jesus Himself told them, "Make sure and get 'the others' rebaptized the way you understand it."

As the one guy posted on this forum (don't remember who it was) proclaimed in bold, colored, all cap letters "if you are not baptized in the Name of Jesus you are going to hell." Well, if this is true there are a lot of trinitarian people out there who truly love the Lord. I would think that if "the way" of baptism was so important that Jesus would have mentioned it to one of these guys.

Then we could look at a multitude of people who are considered to be "God's Generals." These would be people like Alexander Dowie, Maria Woodworth Etter, Seymour, Kuhlman, Wigglesworth, Branum, Sumrall, and others. Of those who operated in an absolute power and demonstration of God they were split with about 30% being oneness and about 70% being trinity.

People have die hard opinions of baptism, but my question is....."does God?"

God's opinion on baptism is written in the word of God. Does God have die hard opinions on baptism? Does the word say he does or does not?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

So everytime you sin Steve you go get rebaptised?

No baptism remits past sins it is the birth of water of Jn. 3:5 we are only born once. Repentance takes care of the sins of saints they have already been born again.

[KWSS1976]

I thought repentance removed past sins.....If you repent,be baptised in jesus name the next day go sin then when you repent you are remiting the past sin you just commited plus when you repent the first time god remits those past sins...Your way you have to get baptised in water everytime you sin to get sins remitted..

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Everyone from Pentecost until the rapture is lost without being immersed in Jesus Name. ONLY through immersion in Jesus Name are sins remitted in the NT church age. I hope this helps.

You comment is interesting although as I believe totally in error. Although I think the most interesting thing about it is the power of personal theology.

Now, I know you fully believe what you have said and I respect that, but it is so contrary to what God has done.

I think that Man of the Word's comments would more be more accurate in a pure oneness theology, but even his comments are extremely interesting because his approach is that he is totally correct and is trying to fit God into His belief system.

Could it possibly be that God knows more than us and those who say "God's opinion is clearly written in His Word" are really saying that in terms of "how they interpret His Word."

It is very evident that there are many trinitarians who live cleaner more holy lives than oneness (and vice versa), there are many trinitarians who pray in the Spirit more than oneness (and vice versa), there are many mighty works done through trinitarians (and vice versa), so it may just be that God's standard is different than man's standard

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

I was thinking about all the posts about baptism...you know whether it is important what the preacher says prior to baptism.

Let me challenge you to back away from your theology for a moment and think about a couple of points about the Body of Christ in general.

Two men - one is "trinity" and one is "oneness" both tell stories of how they had visitation from Jesus and that He spoke with them about their ministries about the times they lived in and so forth.

The men: Kenneth Hagin (the Senior one) and Chester Hensley

I have heard accounts of both men (Hensley in person and Hagin through books). Both claiming to have had several encounters with Jesus, yet neither of these men stated that Jesus Himself told them, "Make sure and get 'the others' rebaptized the way you understand it."

As the one guy posted on this forum (don't remember who it was) proclaimed in bold, colored, all cap letters "if you are not baptized in the Name of Jesus you are going to hell." Well, if this is true there are a lot of trinitarian people out there who truly love the Lord. I would think that if "the way" of baptism was so important that Jesus would have mentioned it to one of these guys.

Then we could look at a multitude of people who are considered to be "God's Generals." These would be people like Alexander Dowie, Maria Woodworth Etter, Seymour, Kuhlman, Wigglesworth, Branum, Sumrall, and others. Of those who operated in an absolute power and demonstration of God they were split with about 30% being oneness and about 70% being trinity.

People have die hard opinions of baptism, but my question is....."does God?"

It is my opinion that one has to be water baptized to be saved. Any acceptations due to disability make the rule and leave us with the ability without excuse).

As to “wording” when being water baptized. I sometimes fear that we use the name of Jesus like it’s some kind of magic incantation spoken by a minister that washes away sin. Biblically speaking, it is the one being baptized that is commanded to call on the name of the Lord, not the baptizer. Look at what Paul was told,

Acts 22:16
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

It was Paul’s responsibility to call upon the name of the Lord at his baptism and have his sins washed away.

I believe whole heartedly that the original Apostolic method of water baptism involves calling on, or invoking, the name of the Lord Jesus at the moment of baptism. However, I don’t think these “formulas” are the point. The point is … is the one being water baptized calling on the power of the name of Jesus to wash away their sins? Many powerful men of God down through history were baptized under the traditional Trinitarian formula. However, a number of them were being obedient to Scripture by seeking water baptism… and were indeed calling upon the name of the Lord at the moment they were water baptized. While I will agree that these men underwent a baptism using a traditional “formula”, I firmly believe that if they, themselves, were calling on the name of the Lord in a humble and repentant heart, God accepted their act of faith-filled obedience and remitted their sin. In Heaven, they will give glory to Jesus, remembering having called upon his name… not the words muttered by some religious official. Same with Oneness Apostolic folk; if the individual being water baptized is relying on the verbiage of some Apostolic preacher… he’s not relying on Jesus. He’s relying on a man, and the baptism is ineffectual, they only get wet. However, if that person is praying and calling on the name of Jesus, the man of God of course freely praying and calling on the name with them, God hears him regardless of what the preacher says.

As for Holy Ghost infilling - men like Tyndale, Luther, Wesley, etc. had very powerful spiritual experiences while in prayer with weeping, groaning, and unintelligible sobbing that they didn’t label or fully understand. I believe that this was the baptism of the Holy Ghost. While yes, they were still entrenched in much “tradition” they were being used of God to bring the church back to Apostolic purity like the prophets of old… one generation at a time. And I do expect to see them in Heaven. I wouldn’t be reading a Bible today if not for Tyndale. He will not loose his reward. If these men were alive today, I believe they’d be at the cutting edge of what God is doing. Sadly, our Apostolic denominations are growing cold and traditional in their own ways. Keep an eye open… the weather’s right for another move of God… another reformation.

Most might shudder at the idea of another Reformation and our beloved organizations becoming old wineskins. But think about it… there’s still much “tradition” in us; for example, the Lord’s Supper. Biblically speaking, the Lord’s Supper isn’t adequately observed with a wafer and thimble of juice. It’s a full meal, remembering the broken body and shed blood at Calvary and looking forward to Christ’s coming and the day when we will sit and feast with him at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Our pot-luck dinners have more in common with the Lord’s Supper than our Catholic Communion services. This is a Catholic Tradition we embrace and practice often. It needs to go and we need to return to the fullness of the Lord’s Supper.

I’ll stop there. You get my point.

For me the issue isn’t so much who muttered what over one being baptized… it’s whose name was the one being baptized calling upon at the moment of water baptism. That is where baptism has its true power.

I digress.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It is my opinion that one has to be water baptized to be saved. Any acceptations due to disability make the rule and leave us with the ability without excuse).

Aquila, maybe I didn't have enough coffee this morning, but could you rephrase the above as I don't get what you are saying

[KWSS1976]

Aquila per your statement

It is my opinion that one has to be water baptized to be saved. Any acceptations due to disability make the rule and leave us with the ability without excuse).

show me where in scripture someone with a disability gets a free ride...

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Aquila

As to “wording” when being water baptized. I sometimes fear that we use the name of Jesus like it’s some kind of magic incantation spoken by a minister that washes away sin. Biblically speaking, it is the one being baptized that is commanded to call on the name of the Lord, not the baptizer. Look at what Paul was told,

Acts 22:16
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

It was Paul’s responsibility to call upon the name of the Lord at his baptism and have his sins washed away.

I believe whole heartedly that the original Apostolic method of water baptism involves calling on, or invoking, the name of the Lord Jesus at the moment of baptism. However, I don’t think these “formulas” are the point. The point is … is the one being water baptized calling on the power of the name of Jesus to wash away their sins? Many powerful men of God down through history were baptized under the traditional Trinitarian formula. However, a number of them were being obedient to Scripture by seeking water baptism… and were indeed calling upon the name of the Lord at the moment they were water baptized. While I will agree that these men underwent a baptism using a traditional “formula”, I firmly believe that if they, themselves, were calling on the name of the Lord in a humble and repentant heart, God accepted their act of faith-filled obedience and remitted their sin. In Heaven, they will give glory to Jesus, remembering having called upon his name… not the words muttered by some religious official. Same with Oneness Apostolic folk; if the individual being water baptized is relying on the verbiage of some Apostolic preacher… he’s not relying on Jesus. He’s relying on a man, and the baptism is ineffectual, they only get wet. However, if that person is praying and calling on the name of Jesus, the man of God of course freely praying and calling on the name with them, God hears him regardless of what the preacher says.

Aquila,

I have to honestly say that there is very little that I agree with you on. But the above was worded excellently and I totally agree with it!

I'll leave the rest of what you said alone. I don't want to ruin a good moment