How To Go To Hell: An Observation of Cons and Libs

[Nahum]

Extremism is always dangerous in any setting. I completely agree with your observations. Of course you know, this means war.

I believe the freakycons believe they are incapable of failure. That they are somehow immune. That their standards are the power that will keep them from falling. All the while never realizing that they love their fences more than their God.

They love this "way" more than they love "THE WAY".
They love this "truth" more than they love "THE TRUTH".

And they find it impossible to find separation from the two.

[StillStanding]

Steadfast, You may find this alarming, but I actually agree with you!

Of course we may disagree where the line should be crossing over into extreemism on both sides!

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Well, been a while since I started a thread so I thought I'd offer the forum something to think about... and something to hear your opinions of.

For a couple weeks now I've been deeply troubled about some things I see encroaching into the Apostolic movement around us leaving great damage in it's wake.

First of all, I'll offer a couple disclaimers:
1. To begin with I'm coming from the perspective of a Conservative (a fact that some will no doubt cast doubt on) and realize that some will think my view is too skewed to be accurate.
2. Secondly, I'm in NO WAY saying this is an 'across the board 100% included' observation for either conservatives of liberals.

Here is where my heart has been troubled during the past few weeks. I love all the brethren - ministry and laity / conservative and liberals / passionate and passive - and want them all to make the necessary life adjustments to ultimately be saved. However, I know that some will be lost. The Bible makes that plain.

After a few recent weeks of spending a lot of time by myself in Evangelist Quarters with plenty of time to pray I find myself grieving for both extremes among us. Let me explain. After several intense seasons of prayer last week my heart came to a sad conclusion:

Liberals are going to be lost and go to Hell for laying down Biblical absolutes and
Conservatives are going to be lost and go to Hell because of a 'spirit' of entitlement.

That may not sound like much (except a challenge to both sides) until you hear me out. I do believe that it takes sanctification and separation from the world to be saved. Some liberals will fail miserably in that area. But I also believe that it takes a pure heart and a life void of what the Bible calls 'guile' to be saved. Some conservatives will fail equally as miserably in that area.

A lack of holiness allows some liberal Saints to wander into blatant iniquity and still feel saved.
A spirit of 'entitlement' allows some conservative Saint to have vicious attitudes
under the guise of "I'm still holy so I'm entitled to feel this way."

A lack of holiness allows some liberal Preachers to fail God miserably by easing from 'liberty' to 'license' for sinful actions.
A spirit of 'entitlement' allows some conservative Preachers to become vile towards authority
in their own lives and feel entitled to it because "I never let go of any standards like some."

A lack of holiness allows some liberal Pastors to have affairs because it's a short distance from
laying down the 'be careful little eyes' stuff to laying down someone that doesn't belong to you.
A spirit of 'entitlement' allows some conservative Pastors to have affairs because
"I give so much of myself to others that I'm entitled to getting a little attention myself."

My dear friends on AFF... It's blatant deception to think that laying down biblical absolutes will never destroy the soul. It's even more deceptive to think that just because we preach a strong message that we're entitled to have certain sins, attitudes or 'shortcomings' exempted from God's displeasure.

How can those who know so much go to Hell?
Many liberals will miss Heaven over their compromise.
Many conservatives will miss Heaven because a 'spirit of entitlement' opened the door to sin in their hearts.

PREACH, MY BRETHREN, AGAINST SIN WITH A HOLY PASSION
BUT NEVER - EVER - BELIEVE THAT ENTITLES YOU TO BE LESS THAN HOLY!

Steadfast, I agree 100 % with what you are saying.
I too have spent some time in prayer asking God-"am I where I need to be?'
"Examine me o Lord, and know my thoughts."
"Let me have a right spirit, a clean heart, and a right attitude."

You see others I can only pray, preach, or teach.

My soul is in my hands. I have to make the right choices.

Thanks once again.

I trust your speaking to those Baptists about this wonderful truth is bearing fruit?

[OGIA]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

I believe the freakycons believe they are incapable of failure. That they are somehow immune. That their standards are the power that will keep them from falling. All the while never realizing that they love their fences more than their God.

They love this "way" more than they love "THE WAY".
They love this "truth" more than they love "THE TRUTH".

And they find it impossible to find separation from the two.

It's amazing the difference in the above post and the ones by those who accept what Steadfast cautions against, indicating that they recognize that they are susceptible to such things. Not surprisingly, a couple (if not more) of those ones are considered to be "freakycons" (what a stupid term).

I see no recognition of that attitude in the poster of the above. All I see is a "YEAH! You tell 'em!" mentality.


Pretty sad....................

[CC1]

Steadfast,

While I don't agree with part of your premise I do very much agree that human failure and weakness knows no "stripe" in Pentecost.

Both the man who lays down his guard against The Enemy of our souls because of a less legalistic take on "holiness" standards and the man who is so enamored of his works before God that he begins worshipping the works rather than God are in danger of the failure you outlined.

Both end up in a ditch with the Gospel distorted and perverted.

However I do think there are good "liberal" me of God who very much keep the moral law of God in their minds and hearts as there are ultra cons who strongly hold to a strict "holiness" standard without the spirit of superiority and hatred we sometimes see exhibited.

Originally Posted by OGIA

It's amazing the difference in the above post and the ones by those who accept what Steadfast cautions against, indicating that they recognize that they are susceptible to such things. Not surprisingly, a couple (if not more) of those ones are considered to be "freakycons" (what a stupid term).

I see no recognition of that attitude in the poster of the above. All I see is a "YEAH! You tell 'em!" mentality.


Pretty sad....................

OGIA,

At this point I think it should be noted that the whole 'spirit of entitlement' is not limited to the conservative end of the spectrum. I suspect that either extreme can find this 'I'm entitled because of...' attitude.

Question: Just how many of us 'bend the lines' because we feel like - especially as ministers - we give so much of ourselves in other areas that we're entitled to a few 'liberties' of our own?

Looking back I have to admit that most liberals who get into a mess do it over compromise. Most conservatives who get into a mess do it because they felt entitled to 'exempt' themselves in certain areas.

Another question: Just how far does this whole 'entitlement' thing really go? I had my original Pastor (a very strict man now backslid for close to 30 years) fall into adultery and shame our entire Church in our community. His was surel a 'spirit of entitlement' as he literally said in his 'farewell speech' that "I've made some mistakes. Bad mistakes. But one thing I can say is that I kept this Church holy and separate from the world." Even in his departure his attitude was one that said, "I was entitled to it."

I would speculate that there are many a vicious attitude, many a 'immoral consideration', many a bitter spirit that hides (on both sides?) behind a spirit of entitlement.

I've met men who practically hated their neighboring Pastor who took Saints from them... but they were 'entitled' to because "I still preach strong holiness".

I've known some who have caused massive discord in organizations... but they were 'entitled' to because they hadn't 'thrown standards out the window' like others had.

I fear we've seen, even on forums, those who nuke someone whose opinion we differ with because... after all, "We still tow the line and they've compromised."

Maybe this is wrapped up in the verses that basically tell us '... the ways of a man is right in his own eyes."

Alas, I fear that for every 'compromiser' there may well be a dangerous story (perhaps on both sides of the fence?) of those who were 'entitled' to their unholy actions.

OGIA and the rest... I appreciate your input. I'm anxious to see other responses.

Originally Posted by CC1

Steadfast,

While I don't agree with part of your premise I do very much agree that human failure and weakness knows no "stripe" in Pentecost.

Both the man who lays down his guard against The Enemy of our souls because of a less legalistic take on "holiness" standards and the man who is so enamored of his works before God that he begins worshipping the works rather than God are in danger of the failure you outlined.

Both end up in a ditch with the Gospel distorted and perverted.

However I do think there are good "liberal" me of God who very much keep the moral law of God in their minds and hearts as there are ultra cons who strongly hold to a strict "holiness" standard without the spirit of superiority and hatred we sometimes see exhibited.

And precisely the reason I said, "... some...".

Thanks!

[CC1]

Steadfast,

Isn't it amazing that when you boil it all down what you addressed in your thread here is all about a man's perception of himself, God, and the relationship between the two?

[OGIA]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Alas, I fear that for every 'compromiser' there may well be a dangerous story (perhaps on both sides of the fence?) of those who were 'entitled' to their unholy actions.

OGIA and the rest... I appreciate your input. I'm anxious to see other responses.

While I'm not sure what your post had to do with my assessment of PP's post, I do agree with your intial thoughts. NO ONE is exempt from both attitudes you speak of. I KNOW I'm not. Being somewhere in the middle, I might even have to deal with both, each equally as powerful!!

It just amazes me (doesn't surprise me, though) that someone would come on this thread, no matter what "side" they live on, and start bashing the "other side". Talk about a man thinking he is right! Of course, that type of thinking (entitlement) by one (PP) on the more liberal side sorta blows your assertion, doesn't it?

That being said, I think it a beautiful thing when you find a man or woman of God who seems to have found the balance. In my few years of being back in the Church, I've seen very few. Do they still battle "the attitude"? No doubt. But, you can tell they have a much greater handle on it than most......especially me.

[IAintMovin]

Great thread my friend.