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  #11  
Old 03-31-2009, 01:05 PM
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Re: Differences of the two at the merger?

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Originally Posted by TJJJ View Post
Fudge did have some good data, I just disagree with the conclusion he came to.
It is the most academic expose' of the history of the UPCI to date. I got a little squirmy at some of his conclusions, but the documented history of the merger was spot on!
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  #12  
Old 03-31-2009, 01:06 PM
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Re: Differences of the two at the merger?

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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
To sum it up on what I think is the most important point...

The PCI view accepts all those who have sincerely turned to Jesus Christ in faith as being at least potentially a part of the Body of Christ. In other words, those millions of Christians that you meet every day just might be your brother and sister in Christ and should be treated accordingly.

The PAJC view is more exclusivistic and demands that the complete "3 step" process of repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and the infilling of the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in other tongues, be completed.

The practical difference is that the PCI view does not purport to hold itself up as judge and arbiter over the salvation of mankind. Also, the "3 step" view has led to a number of errors. Here's just 3 of them:

1) The belief that an "Acts 2:38 church" has always existed throughout church history. Several fraudulant and even ridiculous books and "reports" have been published over the years. Many in the "3 step" camp seem to require this fantastic manipulation of the truth in order to line themselves up with their expectations on Matthew 16:18.

2) The belief that careful "obedience" to a script supercedes the work of Jesus Christ on the cross and the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

3) The belief that since we've got the baptismal formula correct, every other thought or whimsy is equally the "voice of God" and to be obeyed for fear of losing one's salvation.
And the PCI strongly emphasized repentance and baptism in Jesus name and the necessity of receiving the baptism of the Spirit with tongues post conversion (like the AOG does or did)
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  #13  
Old 03-31-2009, 01:07 PM
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Re: Differences of the two at the merger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway View Post
It is the most academic expose' of the history of the UPCI to date. I got a little squirmy at some of his conclusions, but the documented history of the merger was spot on!
Doesn't that "bias" him though? A true historian should present the facts and let us draw the conclusions
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #14  
Old 03-31-2009, 01:10 PM
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Re: Differences of the two at the merger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
To sum it up on what I think is the most important point...

The PCI view accepts all those who have sincerely turned to Jesus Christ in faith as being at least potentially a part of the Body of Christ. In other words, those millions of Christians that you meet every day just might be your brother and sister in Christ and should be treated accordingly.

The PAJC view is more exclusivistic and demands that the complete "3 step" process of repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and the infilling of the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in other tongues, be completed.

The practical difference is that the PCI view does not purport to hold itself up as judge and arbiter over the salvation of mankind. Also, the "3 step" view has led to a number of errors. Here's just 3 of them:

1) The belief that an "Acts 2:38 church" has always existed throughout church history. Several fraudulant and even ridiculous books and "reports" have been published over the years. Many in the "3 step" camp seem to require this fantastic manipulation of the truth in order to line themselves up with their expectations on Matthew 16:18.

2) The belief that careful "obedience" to a script supercedes the work of Jesus Christ on the cross and the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

3) The belief that since we've got the baptismal formula correct, every other thought or whimsy is equally the "voice of God" and to be obeyed for fear of losing one's salvation.

dude, try to be a bit more bias. good grief.
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  #15  
Old 03-31-2009, 01:11 PM
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Re: Differences of the two at the merger?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway View Post
It is the most academic expose' of the history of the UPCI to date. I got a little squirmy at some of his conclusions, but the documented history of the merger was spot on!
Agreed!
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  #16  
Old 03-31-2009, 01:13 PM
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Re: Differences of the two at the merger?

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Doesn't that "bias" him though? A true historian should present the facts and let us draw the conclusions
No more biased than those history books "approved" by the UPCI. Fudge a least made an attempt to be even handed and academic in his approach.

For those interested, here is a link to why Thomas Fudge wrote the book. (in his own words)

Why I Wrote the Book, "Christianity Without the Cross"
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  #17  
Old 03-31-2009, 01:21 PM
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Re: Differences of the two at the merger?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway View Post
No more biased than those history books "approved" by the UPCI. Fudge a least made an attempt to be even handed and academic in his approach.

For those interested, here is a link to why Thomas Fudge wrote the book. (in his own words)

Why I Wrote the Book, "Christianity Without the Cross"
oddly enough nowhere in there does fudge inform the reader that he is the son of a UPCI minister who is now an Anglican.

anyone besides myself see that as a bit of a red flag?

(I have read most of the book in question.
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  #18  
Old 03-31-2009, 01:53 PM
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Re: Differences of the two at the merger?

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Originally Posted by crazyjoe View Post
I did not know until I read these threads that the PCI and the Apostolic Assemblies held different beliefs at, during and since the merger in 1945. Although many posts have referred to these differences I have not seen what the differences were. Could you please list the differences and which side held those beliefs, what churches did each side evolve from, names from each organization and what part of the country did they dominate?

I just need a little history lesson on the differences. Thanks.
Also, be careful of the answers because most of the answers will come from folks with some dog in this hunt. Most will give you their bias view.

I would be no exception to that rule, but I will try to be as unbiased as possible.

To begin with, by and large the Pan-Pentecostal movement came out of Methodism. The Holiness movement of the 1800’s was driven by the Methodist church and it was from those roots that the Pentecostal outpouring sprang. That is not to say that it was only Methodist (holiness) people alone at the beginning, but it was the dominant doctrinal tradition.

From that, Pentecostals who were by and large Trinitarian formed the Assemblies of God. During these early days some AOG preachers began to teach Oneness doctrine and at some point around 1919 (If memory serves) the AOG as an organization, took a stand for the Trinitarian doctrine. This led to a split between those who were committed to the Oneness doctrine and those who were Trinitarians.

Those that were Oneness further broke down into several different groups or organizations, race being a component (Pentecostal Assemblies of the World PAW being the largest black organization) and then there were quite a few white groups. The Pentecostal Church International (PCI) and the Pentecostal Assemblies of Jesus Christ (PAJC) were two of the largest such groups.

These two groups made several attempts at unifying into a single organization. But there were some differences. Both were still holiness in message. Both preached Acts 2:38 as the proper response to the Gospel. But within the PCI there were a number of men (the actual percentage is not known) who believed that one was saved at repentance and that Baptism and Holy Ghost infilling were events that the saved person did/experienced.

The PAJC was made up mostly of men who believed the Water/Spirit doctrine. That is to say that one must be born of Water (baptism) and Spirit (Holy Ghost Baptism) to be saved.

What is not known is exactly what percentage of the PCI believed in Saved at repentance. I know for certain that A. T. Morgan and George Glass Sr. both believed in the Water/Spirit Doctrine and both of them were members of the PCI organization at the merger. A. T. Morgan became a General Superintendant of the UPCI. On the other hand Howard Goss, CH Yadon, and A. D. Gurley believed one was saved at repentance at least one of these men was a General Superintendant of the UPCI and I think at least 2 GS of the UPCI believe in saved at repentance.

What all the older men agree on is that all of them fervently preached Acts 2:38 One God message.

While that was not the only difference that had to be ironed out for the merger to happen in 1945, it was the biggest doctrinal issue. It was that issue that led to language in the merger documents that stated in essence that these men would strive for unity of the brethren until they came into unity of the faith.

There were other minor issues like organizational structure and who would hold what offices and church structure among other things but this was the one serious doctrinal issue.

At the end of the day, those men thought that it was not too large a difference to prevent them from working together.

Over time, the Water/Spirit doctrine became dominant, it is my belief that this was because the majority of the men in both the PCI and PAJC already believed the Water/Spirit doctrine before the merger.

As a side note, I firmly believe the Water/Spirit doctrine, so if I have shown any bias, you know where I am coming from. Hopefully this answers your questions. If I have made any factual mistakes here, it is the result of having recounted this from memory and not taking the time to be sure of certain facts (like the 1919 date and such). But this is in essence the information I believe you are looking for.
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  #19  
Old 03-31-2009, 02:00 PM
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Re: Differences of the two at the merger?

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Originally Posted by TJJJ View Post
Just so I understand Pel,

Do you not believe that the church has existed throught the centuries?
Yes, I do believe that. But to be fair to those who don't agree with me on other points I need to say that I believe "the Church" to be those described in Hebrews 12:22-29. "Whose names are written in heaven..."

To be included in this number we must be "His workmanship..." You are not saved by what you have done, you are saved because of what He has done. See Ephesians 2. We are "made nigh by the blood..." His blood. We are NOT saved "of ourselves..." it is "the gift of God: Not of works..."

We are not saved because we have figured out a secret or because some mystery was revealed to our grandparents. We are saved because "God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)."

I can find no evidence of the supposed continual line of "Acts 2:38 believers" from the apostolic age through to the 21st century. And, those who have tried to offer such "evidence" embarassed all of us with their sloppy and often deceitful work.
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  #20  
Old 03-31-2009, 02:03 PM
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Re: Differences of the two at the merger?

Pel.. I do believe you have gods spirit all over you right now..
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