One God Revelation Question

[Sam]

Michael,
In his book, Divine Names and Titles of God, no copyright date, the late Bishop G.T. Haywood says on page 3:

ELOHIM occurs 2,700 times in the Old Testament. Its first occurrence connects it with creation and gives it its essential meaning as the Creator. It shows forth His relation to mankind as His creatures. Notice 2 Chron. 18:31, where Elohim (God) is contrasted with His name Jehovah. To Jehosaphat, He was JEHOVAH, his Covenant God, while to the Syrians He stood only in the relation of Creator (Elohim) to his creatures because He had made no covenant with them as a nation at any time. Elohim is God, the living God, the power of creation. (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17; Rev. 3:4-11). He first assumes a creature form, though spiritual in nature (Gen. 12:7; 32:24-30; Isa. 6:1, 5) afterwards, the human form for the purpose of redeeming mankind. (John 1:14; Heb. 2:9, 14, 16, 17; Phil. 2:7; Rom. 8:3). That Elohim, in His creature form spiritually, who appeared to the Patriarchs and Prophets is the same who appeared in a human form 1,900 years ago to Israel can be clearly seen by reading the following scriptures: Gen 17:13; Ex 6:2, 3 with John 8:56-58; Isa. 6:1, 2, 5, 9, 10, with John 12:39, 40, 41, 44, 45.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Sam

In his book, Divine Names and Titles of God, no copyright date, the late Bishop G.T. Haywood says on page 3:

ELOHIM occurs 2,700 times in the Old Testament. Its first occurrence connects it with creation and gives it its essential meaning as the Creator. It shows forth His relation to mankind as His creatures. Notice 2 Chron. 18:31, where Elohim (God) is contrasted with His name Jehovah. To Jehosaphat, He was JEHOVAH, his Covenant God, while to the Syrians He stood only in the relation of Creator (Elohim) to his creatures because He had made no covenant with them as a nation at any time. Elohim is God, the living God, the power of creation. (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17; Rev. 3:4-11). He first assumes a creature form, though spiritual in nature (Gen. 12:7; 32:24-30; Isa. 6:1, 5) afterwards, the human form for the purpose of redeeming mankind. (John 1:14; Heb. 2:9, 14, 16, 17; Phil. 2:7; Rom. 8:3). That Elohim, in His creature form spiritually, who appeared to the Patriarchs and Prophets is the same who appeared in a human form 1,900 years ago to Israel can be clearly seen by reading the following scriptures: Gen 17:13; Ex 6:2, 3 with John 8:56-58; Isa. 6:1, 2, 5, 9, 10, with John 12:39, 40, 41, 44, 45.

I have posted this before and met with two objections:
One person had problems with Jesus pre-existing as the Word or Angel of YHWH because he wondered what happened to that visible form when Jesus came in flesh.
Another person had problems with YHWH appearing as the Angel of YHWH because in the KJV NT we find the Angel of the Lord appearing after the incarnation.

[Sam]

Many years ago (some time in the late nineteen fifties or early nineteen sixties) I read a book by C.H. Yadon. I think the title was Jehovah-Jesus. I have not had that book for many years and am not sure what happened to it. When I read it, it sounded like Arianism to me. Later I read somewhere that he had plagiarized it from some other book that presented Jesus as being the Archangel Michael. I don't know how true that allegation was, and I'm not sure how accurate my assessment was of the book. I remember one time my UPC pastor referred to Bro. Yadon as "two God Yadon" back in the early nineteen sixties. That book is no longer available as far as I know. I'd like to read it again some time and see if I come to the same conclusion.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sam

I have posted this before and met with two objections:
One person had problems with Jesus pre-existing as the Word or Angel of YHWH because he wondered what happened to that visible form when Jesus came in flesh.
Another person had problems with YHWH appearing as the Angel of YHWH because in the KJV NT we find the Angel of the Lord appearing after the incarnation.

1. What happened to the form?

The form was THE WORD of John 1:1-3

1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

What happened to the WORD/FORM?

14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14

It was made flesh and became the Son of God. God manifest in the flesh.

2. Angel of the Lord after the incarnation.

Im not aware of any case where THIS ANGEL appears in the New Testament. Remember there are millions of angels that belong to YHWH. Any of them could be designated as the angel of YHWH. It always depends on THE CONTEXT whether it is THE ANGEL OF HIS PRESENCE.

We do have one case where Yeshua seems to be called an Angel by Paul.

14: And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

The Greek Old Testament (LXX) renders Isaiah 9:6-7

6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. 7 His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this.

The word Messenger is the same Hebrew word as for ANGEL.

Some LXX versions into English read it that way.

"his name is called The angel of Great Counsel".

This parallels the Hebrew:

"his name shall be called Wonderful Counseler, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace".

This would be a clear statement that the Angel is all those things if indeed a parallel version.

I think the Greek speaking Christians in Europe still use the LXX Old Testament so its all they have ever known of Isaiah 9:6-7

So that could be showing very clearly that Yeshua was the Angel Of Great Counsel and should still hold that title today.

It certainly imo is a stronger doctrine than to teach the Logos was a "thought" or a "plan" in Gods mind.

Its a pity the modern Oneness teachers have deserted this teaching. Perhaps some of us can continue to keep this truth alive until it once again becomes the dominant doctrine among Oneness.

[Michael The Disciple]

The word LOGOS used by John I believe defines the image of God. I liken it to the word "logo" which is usually a picture that draws attention to a product of some kind. "Logo" actually comes from Logos.

I found this on a secular site that points out this fact.

Logo Design ArticlesLogos, a historyby Grace Conlon ©2003 Logoworks
What are logos? How are they different than icons? People are confused about this but it isn't keeping anyone up nights unless they happen to be deeply immersed in the study of ancient civilizations. Even though the word "logo" comes from ancient Greek and it translates to "word" or "speech", other cultures - the Babylonian, Assyrian, Mayan, Chinese, Egyptian also used pictographs to communicate words and ideas. Pictographs could be considered early logos; unfortunately, gang graffiti on the walls of inner city buildings continues that trend of identification through signs and pictures.

Icons (derived from the Greek) are also used to communicate, but with pictures instead of words. The dictionary definition of "icon" is "image or likeness". Thus, logo is to "word" as icon is to "picture" yet in the modern world of product identification, the distinction between the two is sort of cloudy; many well-known logos combine a tag line/motto and a picture with the corporate or product name in the logo.

What this means to me is that the Logos John speaks of is not just the speech of God but a visible expression of it. A vehicle or image of the omnipresent eternal Spirit's communication with Creation.

The Angels I believe saw THIS when they looked at the throne.

Men saw it when they said they saw God. No man has seen God at any time as to his omnipresence. Some have seen him as THE IMAGE or ANGEL OF YHWH.

An amusing thread on AFF may give some insight to what I am saying.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=22417

[Sam]

In Colossians 1:15 Jesus is called the "image" Greek eikon of the invisible God.

In Matthew 22:20 the Greek Bible uses that word eikon when Jesus asks about whose image is on the coin

[Michael The Disciple]

Theodore Fitch an early Oneness teacher

"The 'Angel of the Lord' represented the Great Eternal Spirit that filled the Universe. The Spirit of God was present everywhere. The Angel 'Person' of God was God in One Place. Please notice that everytime the Angel of the Lord appeared or spoke to anyone it was God Himself 'in person'... Before the Son of God was born of the Virgin Mary, the Lord God existed in two definite ways. God was manifested as an Angelic Spirit 'Person' and as an omnipresent Spirit, that is present everywhere all the time. His 'Person' was in the form of a man, and His eternal Spirit was without form, body or parts" (Theodore Fitch, The Deity of Jesus, Pentecostal Publishing House, Hazelwood, MO n.d., p. 4).

John Patterson an early Oneness teacher

"The visible being who appeared to Jacob and declared himself to be God, and who was recognized by Jacob as God, is variously described in the Bible as 'the Angel of Jehovah' (over 50 references), 'the Angel of the Covenant' (Mal. 3:1, 1 Cor 10:9), and 'the Angel who can refuse to pardon iniquity, because the name of Jehovah is in Him' (Ex. 23:21, Psalm 2:12). Surely no one will deny the Power to forgive, or the right to refuse pardon, belongs solely to God. Who is this Angel if he is not the pre-existent Christ? ...Likewise, the fact that Christ was not 'just another angel' did not prevent Him from being the Angel of God's Presence and the Angel of the covenant who 'suddenly came to His Temple' (as foretold in Malachi 3:1 and fulfilled in John 2:13-16)" (John Paterson, God in Christ Jesus, p. 48-49).

At one time these teachers were held in the highest regard among Oneness people.

Today many Oneness people even Ministers have never heard this taught.

[Sam]

Regarding your quote:
John Patterson an early Oneness teacher

"The visible being who appeared to Jacob and declared himself to be God, and who was recognized by Jacob as God, is variously described in the Bible as 'the Angel of Jehovah' (over 50 references), 'the Angel of the Covenant' (Mal. 3:1, 1 Cor 10:9), and 'the Angel who can refuse to pardon iniquity, because the name of Jehovah is in Him' (Ex. 23:21, Psalm 2:12). Surely no one will deny the Power to forgive, or the right to refuse pardon, belongs solely to God. Who is this Angel if he is not the pre-existent Christ? ...Likewise, the fact that Christ was not 'just another angel' did not prevent Him from being the Angel of God's Presence and the Angel of the covenant who 'suddenly came to His Temple' (as foretold in Malachi 3:1 and fulfilled in John 2:13-16)" (John Paterson, God in Christ Jesus, p. 48-49)

In my KJV, in Malachi 3:1, Jesus is called "the Lord whom ye seek" and "the messenger of the covenant." The word "Messenger" is used there and that can be synonymous with "Angel." In The Apostolic Bible Polyglot, the word LORD appears in all caps there. The term "messenger of the covenant" is used but the Greek word in the inerlinear is aggelos/angel.

However, I don't know what verse is meant by the 1 Cor 10:9 reference.