Obey Them that Rule???

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Kutless

Speaking only as to Apostolics.....this is where the debate has camped for a long time IMO. In fact it at times has consumed the board.

Shorts vs no shorts
Pants vs no pants
Tv vs no Tv
Boxers vs BVD's
Oreo's vs Chip's Ahoy

I like both, but my preference is Chips Ahoy!

[Coonskinner]

Actually, the Scripture says, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves..."

It goes on to say that those in that position will be held accountable for their leadership.

If we are only to go along with the things we agree with, what was the point of Paul using the word "submit?"

There is no submission necessary if we always are in agreement.

There are men in my life I submit to. I do what they tell me even if I don't exactly agree with it, as long as what they say doesn't cause me to violate the Word. And the men I have in my life would never ask me to do something that would violate the Word.

Example:

A couple of years ago, I was invited to rejoin the UPC. I did not want to. But I counselled with my elders, and they told me I should do it. I did not want to, but since I have submitted myself to these men, knowing that I don't always see things clearly, and can't afford to be a law unto myself, I did as they said. I submitted my will to theirs. Everybody needs that in their life.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Actually, the Scripture says, "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves..."

It goes on to say that those in that position will be held accountable for their leadership.

If we are only to go along with the things we agree with, what was the point of Paul using the word "submit?"

There is no submission necessary if we always are in agreement.

There are men in my life I submit to. I do what they tell me even if I don't exactly agree with it, as long as what they say doesn't cause me to violate the Word. And the men I have in my life would never ask me to do something that would violate the Word.

Example:

A couple of years ago, I was invited to rejoin the UPC. I did not want to. But I counselled with my elders, and they told me I should do it. I did not want to, but since I have submitted myself to these men, knowing that I don't always see things clearly, and can't afford to be a law unto myself, I did as they said. I submitted my will to theirs. Everybody needs that in their life.

Amen. Well said CS.

[Coonskinner]

If there is no one in your life who can jerk you up short and make you listen once in a while, there is a subtle transformation that takes place in your mind and spirit.

You get more and more autonomous in your thinking, and more and more strong-willed. This is a condition that sets you up for deception, because you are your ultimate authority, and there are no checks and balances on your will and your ego.

God knew we needed the sometimes abrasive influence of authority figures in our life to keep us from becoming so full of ourselves that we become unteachable.

[Kutless]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

If there is no one in your life who can jerk you up short and make you listen once in a while, there is a subtle transformation that takes place in your mind and spirit.

You get more and more autonomous in your thinking, and more and more strong-willed. This is a condition that sets you up for deception, because you are your ultimate authority, and there are no checks and balances on your will and your ego.

God knew we needed the sometimes abrasive influence of authority figures in our life to keep us from becoming so full of ourselves that we become unteachable.

Having said all that......we are still part of the human race in which mistakes are a possibility.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Kutless

Having said all that......we are still part of the human race in which mistakes are a possibility.

Of course, and God knew that when He inspired the Scriptures and set his plan in motion.

But the fact that men are not infallible doesn't excuse us from obedience to His Word.

Leadership is accountable for their leadership, and will answer to God for it.

The saints are accountable to God for their followship.

[originalsecretplace]

Originally Posted by Ferd

i guess my question is, what are you being ordered to do that is unbiblical?

Hmmmm...

Cutting people off from fellowship who are not complyng with a pastor's opinion, a personal conviction.

[mfblume]

When a preacher preaches the Word, it is not really the preacher that we are attending our ears to. It is God's Word. That makes nothing more of the man than a man. But we give highest regard if it was a 12 year old reading the Word to us, for a preacher is an ambassador for the Lord reprsenting Him. Some take that too far and get into what Michlow has indicated, where they order everyone's every breath. And some people want it that way since that is easier than getting to know the Lord personally.

[IBCrazier2]

Originally Posted by Ron

I like both, but my preference is Chips Ahoy!

Nutter Butters

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Ron

I think she said within the bounds of Biblical Truth.
That is a pretty big brush.
The Catholic Church, the Mormons, and the "Gay" Rainbow Church all believe as well as Apostolics to be in Biblical Truth.

Care to define it more closely?

I could define what I think is Biblical truth, and chances are it would not exactly match with anyone else's opinion of the same. But you have brought up a good point. Would you recommend that Catholic's submit to their priest when he says that its a good idea to pray to Mary & the saints? Or when he advises them that he's sorry that they already have 14 children, but using birth control is a sin?

Most here would say that those things are sin, error, or at the very least unbiblical. But techinically, priests are those who are put in authority over catholics, and therefore by what I perceive to be the thoughts of most here, they would be required to obey and submit to them.

Originally Posted by Kutless

Speaking only as to Apostolics.....this is where the debate has camped for a long time IMO. In fact it at times has consumed the board.

Shorts vs no shorts
Pants vs no pants
Tv vs no Tv
Boxers vs BVD's
Oreo's vs Chip's Ahoy

Yes, those are examples, but for me it goes beyond that.

Originally Posted by Ferd

i guess my question is, what are you being ordered to do that is unbiblical?

It is not so much as being ordered, as being taught as truth, things that I do not necessarily view as truth or biblical, or that I feel is being misinterpreted. Not necessarily things that are outright sin (like drinking the kool-aid etc.), but things I definately feel are not what God intended.

But I really don't so much want to make this about me, but about the question, at which point is it wrong to "obey", that is the question.