Un-Holy Trinity?

[sola gratia]

Originally Posted by Chan

Nestorius was accused of heresy for insisting that those things pertaining to Jesus' divinity do not pertain to his humanity and those things pertaining to Jesus' humanity do not pertain to His divinity.

What are your thoughts on this?

Originally Posted by sola gratia

What are your thoughts on this?

I agree with Nestorius.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Chan

Yes, this is true. Of course, the word "Godhead" is nothing more than a 17th century English word that means "godhood" or the state of being divine.

The Bible is clear that it was the logos (not merely spoken word but the thought and power behind that word - it is what the Jews understood as the memra or revealed essence of God) that became flesh not God in all His fullness (though all the fullness of deity did dwell in the flesh that the logos became).

Hi Chan,This is why I and we must make a separation between the Spirit of God and his word.The word of God that was made flesh is the Son and is flesh and blood.It's the same with my word,it is mine or me but it is not spirit.So the question is ? Did God the Father die ? Yes the word of the Father God died but not his Spirit.The thing is,I'm part of my natural mother and father.Am I them ? Yes I'm a part of each of them even though i'm separate from them.When i became separate from them is when i became their Son.So Jesus the Son is the word part of his father and when he became separate from the Spirit he became the Son.He is no longer the Father but he is part of the father. The thing is most of the trinity or the oneness don't understand this.The thing the trinity has wrong is their baptism and some other points.There is points the oneness have wrong too.

Originally Posted by Joelel

Hi Chan,This is why I and we must make a separation between the Spirit of God and his word.The word of God that was made flesh is the Son and is flesh and blood.It's the same with my word,it is mine or me but it is not spirit.So the question is ? Did God the Father die ? Yes the word of the Father God died but not his Spirit.The thing is,I'm part of my natural mother and father.Am I them ? Yes I'm a part of each of them even though i'm separate from them.When i became separate from them is when i became their Son.So Jesus the Son is the word part of his father and when he became separate from the Spirit he became the Son.He is no longer the Father but he is part of the father. The thing is most of the trinity or the oneness don't understand this.The thing the trinity has wrong is their baptism and some other points.There is points the oneness have wrong too.

This separation is the kind of separation Nestorius insisted on when he said the things pertaining to Jesus' divinity do not pertain to His humanity and the things pertaining to His humanity do not pertain to His divinity.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Chan

This separation is the kind of separation Nestorius insisted on when he said the things pertaining to Jesus' divinity do not pertain to His humanity and the things pertaining to His humanity do not pertain to His divinity.

Hi Chan,Who is Nestorius? Never herd of him.I see the divinity in Jesus.1 Cor.5:19: To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.Rom.8:[11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

Originally Posted by Joelel

Hi Chan,Who is Nestorius? Never herd of him.I see the divinity in Jesus.1 Cor.5:19: To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.Rom.8:[11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

Nestorius, in Greek, Νεστόριος (c. 386–c. 451) was Archbishop of Constantinople from 10 April428 to 22 June431. He received his clerical training as a pupil of Theodore of Mopsuestia in Antioch and gained a reputation for his sermons that led to his enthronement by Theodosius II as Archbishop following the death of Sisinnius I in 428.
Nestorius is considered the originator of the Christological belief known as Nestorianism, which emerged when he began preaching against the title Theotokos (in Greek, Θεοτόκος) or Mother of God, an appellation for Mary, the mother of Jesus. He quickly met with antagonism from the bishop, Cyril of Alexandria. Alongside the Christological debate, other factors were to come into play in the controversy that would ensue, including a political struggle between the supporters of the See of Alexandria and the See of Antioch, the influence of the Emperor over the See of Constantinople, and the patriarchal primacy of the Pope.
The theological debate centered on the use of the title "Mother of God" (Theotokos/Θεοτόκος) for the Virgin Mary, which Nestorius did not recognize, preferring in his sermons, "Mother of Christ" (Christotokos/Χριστοτόκος/) on the grounds that the former title compromised Jesus' humanity. Cyril countered that it was Nestorius who was actually denying the reality of the Incarnation, by making Jesus Christ into two different persons, one human and one divine, in one body.

Nestorianism taught that the human and divine essences of Christ are separate and it was concluded (by Cyril and others) that Nestorius was saying there are two persons: the man Jesus Christ and the divine Logos, which dwelt in the man. Nestorians rejected such terminology as "God suffered" or "God was crucified", because the humanity of Jesus Christ which suffered is separate from his divinity.

His opponents accused him of dividing Christ into two persons: they claimed that proposing that God the Word did not suffer and die on the cross, while Jesus the man did, or that God the Word was omniscient, while Jesus the man had limited knowledge, implied two separate persons with separate experiences. Nestorius responded that he believed that Christ was indeed one person (Greek: ''prosopon'' - more properly "persona").

[MrsMcD]

Speaking of the trinity, I have a question.

A doctrine statement says "We believe in one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

So the third person is suppose to be the Holy Spirit. How do people believe that the Holy Spirit is a person? What do people mean by this?

[sola gratia]

I agree the term is tough to understand - but only if you fail to comprehend the meaning of the word "person"

In the trinitarian terms - this word has been debated since its use - which was as early as the 200's - The term "persons" is simply to denote distinction, and a sense of individuality. In the manner that we see so much is given to each "manifestation" such as the Father loving the Son and the Son loving the Father for instance - Jesus tells us of the love that exists between Father and Son... meaning Himself and the Father - we then have certain texts that say things such as "it seemed good to us and to the Holy Spirit" noting a form of distinction - giving the Spirit some individuality...

So persons does not mean flesh and blood - like we think of - simply distinction.... Let me supply a reference: From a professor at Dallas Theological Seminary

Trinity (Triunity) of God
by
J. Hampton Keathley III

Person: In speaking of the Triunity, the term “person” is not used in same way it is in ordinary usage in which it means an identity completely distinct from other persons. Actually the word persons tends to detract from the unity of the Trinity. According to the teaching of Scripture, the three Persons are inseparable, interdependent, and eternally united in one Divine Being.

It is evident that the word “person” is not ideal for the purpose. Orthodox writers have struggled over this term. Some have opted for the term subsistence (the mode or quality of existence), hence, “God has three substances.” Most have continued to use persons because we have not been able to find a better term. “The word substance speaks of God’s essential nature or being and subsistence describes His mode or quality of existence.”


Hopefully that helps to better explain the position - its quite valid actually - OP's have demonized to place where we/they - whatever can no longer fathom it - despite biblical implication that are clearly present

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by MrsMcD

Speaking of the trinity, I have a question.

A doctrine statement says "We believe in one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

So the third person is suppose to be the Holy Spirit. How do people believe that the Holy Spirit is a person? What do people mean by this?

Hi MisMcD,I think over the years because of the way the trinites use the word persons it has picked up a new meaning.The last thing i heard is the word person don't mean a human person in the use of the word.I think it's an improper use of the word.The bible don't say they are persons.The proper word to us would be three manifestations.The thing I don't understand about what the trinity teaches is if the three are one God then you think they would see that these three has one name.

Are Father Son and Holy Ghost names? No,They are titles. Jesus said to baptize in the name. What is the Son's name? It's Jesus, Isn't It?

Jesus didn't come in his own name.Jesus Said In 1 John 5 ;43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.( Here we find Jesus came in his Fathers name ,So his Father's name is Jesus ? )

The Father sent the Holy Ghost in his Son's name.John 14:26. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, .( Here we find The Father Sent the Holy Ghost In Jesus name,So the Holy Ghost name Is Jesus.)

Eph.3:014 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 003:015 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, ( Here we find the whole family is named after the Father.( So Jesus Is A family name and is the name of the Father Son And Holy Ghost.)

Who did the Son inherit his name from?You don't inherit something from yourself.Heb.1:004 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. ( We find here Jesus Inherited his name from the Father. What name does a Son Inherit? The family name.)

This is why the disciples baptized in Jesus name,read all though the book of Acts.When the Holy Ghost was first given the Apostle Peter told them this. Acts2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by MrsMcD

Speaking of the trinity, I have a question.

A doctrine statement says "We believe in one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

So the third person is suppose to be the Holy Spirit. How do people believe that the Holy Spirit is a person? What do people mean by this?

There believe there are three individuals....dudes...three of them. The word Holy Spirit does not refer to God's essence but is the name of the third dude, yeah.