Grace Verse Legalism

[Pressing-On]

Rhoni,
This is a hard and deep subject in some ways.

One aspect would be: Being in leadership and having to work with people, I find that so many people don't even want to think for themselves. They expect you to tell them what to do. It's as though they "expect" you do drive them along like cattle. Sometimes that can be very exasperating.

I think this brings in a little more legalism than is necessary, but then you sit back and say, "How else can I handle this and make it work?"

It seems in every setting you have your followers and your leaders. I read that no matter how large the congregation you will always, only, have 25% doing the work and doing the giving.

Anyway, I really believe that is where the root of "legalism" starts. Trying to get people to have some gumption and drive. We can say, "Just preach the Word and let the Spirit guide, direct and convict."

That's a good place to start, but you still have your followers. What do you do with those people?

I'm not promoting "legalism" in any way, but I think it's tied up with the non-producers in some ways.

I hope you understand what I am trying to convey.

[DividedThigh]

grace everytime, legalism is too heavy a burden to carry, dt

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Fiyahstarter

I always thought of "Grace" as being that continued unwarranted forgiveness of my imperfections...

And "freedom from legalism" comes with the realization of "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth."

Kinda the same?

I agree with that definition: I use the terms - the unconditional positive regard that Christ show toward us. We are his children when we believe that He is who he says he is. When we accept His forgiveness, identify with him in burial through baptism in his name and walk in the righteousness that he gives us we will forgive ourselves and others as he has forgiven us.

God knows our weakness even if we can hide them from people. His grace and mercy covers all our faults and sins from now until eternity. If we try to make ourselves holy by living up to man's laws, rules, and regulations we deny the work of the cross in our lives.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Rhoni,
This is a hard and deep subject in some ways.

One aspect would be: Being in leadership and having to work with people, I find that so many people don't even want to think for themselves. They expect you to tell them what to do. It's as though they "expect" you do drive them along like cattle. Sometimes that can be very exasperating.

I think this brings in a little more legalism than is necessary, but then you sit back and say, "How else can I handle this and make it work?"

It seems in every setting you have your followers and your leaders. I read that no matter how large the congregation you will always, only, have 25% doing the work and doing the giving.

Anyway, I really believe that is where the root of "legalism" starts. Trying to get people to have some gumption and drive. We can say, "Just preach the Word and let the Spirit guide, direct and convict."

That's a good place to start, but you still have your followers. What do you do with those people?

I'm not promoting "legalism" in any way, but I think it's tied up with the non-producers in some ways.

I hope you understand what I am trying to convey.

Leadership should empower their congregation to pray and seek God, go to the word, and make their own decisions. Just because some people are followers does not give leadership license to make decisions for them. Strive for spiritual maturity. You need to grow the children up not keep them in the crib.

Leadership, much like counselors, have to detach from the client/member's issues to have their own life. It is not my responsibility to carry the burden of my clients, not the Pastor's responsibility to make decisions for the congregation. They are to teach and feed the flock/congregation through example and word.

You'd be surprised if you put the responsibility back on the person by asking them what they think they should do in light of what God has said in his word...can come up with the right answer for themselves.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Sam,
What did ABI teach about the grace of God?
Blessings, Rhoni

You know, now that you've asked, I can't really remember how the subject of "grace" was handled. Bro. Norris was a strong "three-stepper" but he taught the doctrine that is some times called the "light doctrine" and some times called the "holy, righteous and wicked" doctrine. In other words, Acts 2:38 is the message we preach and hold people to but everyone will be judged by how well they walked in the light they had and many who have never heard of Acts 2:28 or didn't understand Acts 2:38, or never knew about Christianity, will receive eternal life at the Great White Throne. He emphasized that in his doctrine class. Also, he was very emphatic about the "Gospels, Acts, and Epistles" divisions of the New Testament. We were told not to look at the Epistles to find out how to be saved. But, I don't remember him ever telling us not to teach or preach from Romans. Another thing he was strong on was that there could never be more apostles than the original twelve plus Paul. He taught that they erred when they chose Matthias and that God did not recognize him as an apostle. He was also strong against the "oil doctrine." He was critical of Amy McPherson, Little David Walker, and A.A. Allen. He posted a certificate or news article (don't remember which) in the school hallway about A.A. Allen being arrested for DUI. I don't, however, ever remember him putting down Bro. Howard Goss as being "weak on the message." Bro. Norris was a strong man and could be caustic and you didn't dare cross him. But I don't remember him being called "the Bear." That term may have come later. Some of us used to say that his initials S.G. stood for Sagging Gut.

I was only there one year and I was a baby Christian.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Leadership should empower their congregation to pray and seek God, go to the word, and make their own decisions. Just because some people are followers does not give leadership license to make decisions for them.

Leadership, much like counselors, have to detach from the client/member's issues to have their own life. It is not my responsibility to carry the burden of my clients, not the Pastor's responsibility to make decisions for the congregation. They are to teach and feed the flock/congregation through example and word.

You'd be surprised if you put the responsibility back on the person by asking them what they think they should do in light of what God has said in his word...can come up with the right answer for themselves.

Blessings, Rhoni

I agree with what you are saying. I am a self-starter and have never had a problem in this area.

Just looking back and having been under both good and bad leadership, I still see a large group of people that don't seem to have a "desire" to try and think for themselves.

I don't know where that comes from. I'm not sure we can totally blame that on a lack of good leadership in all cases.

I personally know a great leader and preacher who has cried and said, "I can't get these people to stop living off of my anointing and seek their own."

This still amazes me. I don't understand it. I'm sure I am approaching your thread from another direction. LOL!

[tssp]

I think sometimes we do all kinds of things trying to make ourselves holy (such as how we dress, places we stay away from, people we stay away from etc.) and then we finally realize WE can't make ourselves holy. We can rule and regulate our lives until we're blue in the face and that is not what makes us holy.

[Sam]

Oh, about "Grace," from what this foggy brain remembers from over half a century ago, Bro. Norris emphasized that the Church Age went from Pentecost to the Rapture and it was called the Grace Age. He was a dispensationalist when it came to that. He also taught that the 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 represented different phases of the Church Age.

[Withdrawn]

I believe "GRACE" is the most beautiful, yet most misunderstood words in the entire scripture. Grace, to me, is God's favor, His pity on us whereby, in immeasurable love He forgives our sins and gives us abundant life. Quite simply put, he offers us that which we do not deserve.

I was sitting at the fringes the other day of a youth meeting where one of the youth leaders made a statement that said there will be people who go to hell with the Holy Ghost. The expression on my face must have been priceless because EVERYONE in the room knew of my immediate displeasure with that statement. The context in which he said it was that, you could be saved but "not living right" and die suddenly and go straight to hell.

What his definition of "living right" was, I have no idea. But I can guess that it's a legalistic definition that puts more stress on "doing" and always being vigilant lest you be found not "doing enough." The sad thing is that he is a good man who has a servant's heart and truly loves the Lord, but his views are warped by years of teaching by an apostate pastor that treated the subject of grace like it was a swear word while emphasizing outward signs of "holiness" and "living right."

The Law is the enemy of Grace. And when people revert back to the law for their list of what they can and cannot do, the grace of God becomes worthless to them. And now, they are debtors to do the whole law.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by jaamez

I believe "GRACE" is the most beautiful, yet most misunderstood words in the entire scripture. Grace, to me, is God's favor, His pity on us whereby, in immeasurable love He forgives our sins and gives us abundant life. Quite simply put, he offers us that which we do not deserve.

I was sitting at the fringes the other day of a youth meeting where one of the youth leaders made a statement that said there will be people who go to hell with the Holy Ghost. The expression on my face must have been priceless because EVERYONE in the room knew of my immediate displeasure with that statement. The context in which he said it was that, you could be saved but "not living right" and die suddenly and go straight to hell.

What his definition of "living right" was, I have no idea. But I can guess that it's a legalistic definition that puts more stress on "doing" and always being vigilant lest you be found not "doing enough." The sad thing is that he is a good man who has a servant's heart and truly loves the Lord, but his views are warped by years of teaching by an apostate pastor that treated the subject of grace like it was a swear word while emphasizing outward signs of "holiness" and "living right."

The Law is the enemy of Grace. And when people revert back to the law for their list of what they can and cannot do, the grace of God becomes worthless to them. And now, they are debtors to do the whole law.

I believe you have answered a question for me - The "fear" factor of our steps every day in living for God. While a healthy respect and love for God is right, a plummeting "fear" is very unhealthy and diverts our attention from the beauty and strength we find in God - in His Spirit that dwells in us.

If we focus more on fear of failing and not on the strength we are afforded, through His Spirit, we become weak.

"Having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh."