The Five Fold Ministry

[ronharvey]

Originally Posted by PMBrown

This raises an interesting point. Is there a difference between the Offices of the five-fold ministry and the physical administrative Offices that run the church? I suspect this might be the case. Paul in the Epistles to Timothy and Titus refers to deacons and bishops but not to pastors. However, today there seems to be very little distinction between the role of pastor and bishop seems to be rolled up into one Office, with teachers more often than not relegated to Sunday school, and evangelists preaching revivals. Something seems seriously amiss here..........IMHO

I have had this very conversation with many; including my own pastors.

The consensus has always been that what we call a pastor is actually in the bible a Bishop (who mus be apt to teach).

A deacon is who serves the local and corporate church.

Also, we call a deacon an evangelist when they also preach the gospel.

A Pastor is a Sheppard (Teacher).

I am sure when looked at you will see this also.

The "Five fold ministry" is now and always was a non bible doctrine.

It is never expounded on as a part of Apostolic understanding.

The Apostles (12) were called The Apostles or The 12 Apostles of the Lamb ( Revelation 21:14) distinguishing them from any other apostles.

The "5 fold ministry" only appears in our doctrine, not that of the Apostles.

Like the word "rapture" and "trinity" it is also not found.

Ron

[Sam]

Originally Posted by PMBrown

This raises an interesting point. Is there a difference between the Offices of the five-fold ministry and the physical administrative Offices that run the church? I suspect this might be the case. Paul in the Epistles to Timothy and Titus refers to deacons and bishops but not to pastors. However, today there seems to be very little distinction between the role of pastor and bishop seems to be rolled up into one Office, with teachers more often than not relegated to Sunday school, and evangelists preaching revivals. Something seems seriously amiss here..........IMHO

Bishops and Elders seem to be the same office and pastor could be taken to mean the same.
Paul told Titus to ordain elders (plural) in every city (Titus 1:5) and then spoke of them as bishops in verse 6-7.

The word translated "elder" in our KJV is "presbuteros" (Strongs number 4245) which means an old person. The idea is that wisdom comes with age so those who are older and wiser are the rulers or elders. The type of government which uses aldermen (older men) is based on this. In my opinion the term "elder" can also apply to the office and not always on the age of the person. Many years ago when I was only twenty years old I was visiting in a church pastored by a woman who was over 70 years old. She referred to me as "Elder Ellis" and it just seemed strange to me since she was half a century older than I. But she was referring to the office, not my age. That organization (The Church of Jesus Christ Pentecostal Faith) did not use the term "Reverend." Actually I would have felt more comfortable just being called "Brother Ellis." Now that I am 70 years old (will be 71 before the end of the year) I am comfortable with the term "Elder." Actually, on my license/credential and on my fellowship card that is my title. That word "presbutero" is also where we get our word Presbyter from.

The word translated "Bishop" in our KJV Bible is "episkopos" (Strong's number 1985) and means superintendent or overseer. That's where the term episcopal in church government comes from. It may be why some organizations use "bishop," some use "overseer" and some use "superintendent."

The word "pastors" in our KJV is a translation of the word "poimen" (Strong's word no. 4166) which is usually translated "shepherd" in our KJV. Actually in Ezekiel 34 where the pastors are preached at by the prophet, in the LXX (Greek Septuagint which was the Bible usually used by the writers of the New Testament) the word used there is poimen.

Poimen can also be used in a verb form meaning "to shepherd." In Peter 5 where he addresses the elders (presbuteros) he refers to himself also as an elder (presbuteros) and tells them to feed/shepherd/pastor (poimen) the flock and they will get their reward when the Chief Shephere/Pastor (poimen) appears.

In Acts 20, the Apostle Paul summoned the elders (presbuteros) of the church in Ephesus and exhorted them to feed/pastor/shepherd (poimen) the church over which the Holy Spirit had made them overseers/bishops (episkopos).

[Sam]

When I said that bishop, elder, and pastor could mean the same thing, I was not claiming to be what some people consider a pastor. I refer to myself as an elder because I teach (midweek service Bible Study) and because I visit and pray for the sick, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord (James 5:13-18). The church I attend does not have "elders" as an office. I do consider myself an elder in the Body of Christ.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by PMBrown

Marvelously said!! I suspect, though, that while not widely recognized, these Offices have always been in operation - although often crippled.

Sam, could you explain exactly why the Latter Rain movement halted the recognition of apostles and prophets in various denominations, including Oneness? I saw that you briefly mentioned the fact in another post, but you never elaborated.

What we usually refer to as "The Latter Rain Movement" came from western Canada in 1948. It spread through the Pentecostal (both trinity and oneness) churches pretty rapidly. There was an emphasis on the gifts of the Spirit. Some would say an "over" emphasis. There were extremes. There was an emphasis on laying on of hands to impart the Holy Ghost Baptism and to impart the gifts of the Spirit. Some taught that when a person received the Holy Ghost Baptism he received all the gifts and they just needed to be stirred up (preferably by a Latter Rain prophet laying hands on you). The gift of prophecy was very prominent. There were "personal prophecies" and people were getting all kinds of guidance about things like whom to marry, where to move, what their calling from God was, about leaving churches, etc. It came at a time when the Pentecostal churches had lost a lot of the fire and zeal of Azusa Street and were pretty well organized and complacent. People were getting enthused (carried away?) and some pastors were afraid of folks in their congregations visiting prophets and healers and hearing from someone besides them. They (pastors) also didn't like the idea that someone outside their organization might consider himself a prophet or apostle and feel like they had authority over him (the pastor) or "his" sheep. Also, pastors and organization were put down by some of the Latter Rain apostles and prophets. There was more emphasis on experience than on teaching and trinitarians and oneness were fellowshipping one another. The reaction from some pastors and officials was to condemn the whole movement and anyone associated with it. In my opinion, Bro. Norris' teaching that there could be no apostles or prophets in the 20th century church was a reaction against the Latter Rain movement. It was derisively referred to as "Latter Splatter" and "Latter Drizzle." The people involved were "loose" with "standards."

Elder Epley would be able to give you more information on this. I didn't receive the Holy Ghost Baptism until 1956 and I did not have personal contact with anyone who would be considered "latter rain." Also, anything I heard about it was negative.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by ronharvey

What about where Pastors and (Kai=even=the same) teachers are lumped together?

Does it now become a 4 fold ministry?

What about the other offices mentioned? Does that increase to a ### fold ministry?

Serious question.

Ron

Because of the way Ephesians 4:11 is worded, some believe that pastor/teacher is one office. That would make it a 4 fold ministry. I don't think (this is my personal opinion) that pastor/teacher is one office. I go along with the idea that pastor and teacher could be two separate callings and persons. In 1 Corinthians 12:28 "teachers" are listed as a gift. In Romans 12 teaching is listed as a gift. In 2 Timothy 1:11 the Apostle Paul calls himself "a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher..." In the Church at Antioch it lists several who were "prophets and teachers" (Acts 13:1. As I have said, I don't know if all 5 of those named there were both teacher and prophet or if some were just teachers and some were just prophets, or if some were both teachers and prophets.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by ronharvey

...
The Apostles (12) were called The Apostles or The 12 Apostles of the Lamb ( Revelation 21:14) distinguishing them from any other apostles.

The "5 fold ministry" only appears in our doctrine, not that of the Apostles.

Like the word "rapture" and "trinity" it is also not found.

Ron

The original 12 were promised 12 thrones to rule over the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30). Also, the 11 (after the departure of Judas) chose one to replace him and stipulated that he was to have been with them all the way from the baptism of John until the ascension of Jesus (Acts 1:22). The one they chose was Matthias and he was numbered with the 11. Paul may have included him (Matthias) as one of the 12 who saw Jesus after His resurrection (1 Cor 15:5). Bro. Norris taught us at ABI that the choosing of Matthias was an error and God's choice for Apostle number 12 was Paul. Some believe Paul was qualified because he did see the resurrected Jesus (but he hadn't been around since the baptism of John).

Oh, and some of us believe in the "rapture" even though the word is not in our KJV. A form of the word is found in the Latin Vulgate.
Some of us believe in the trinity, some in the triunity, and some in the triune God although those words are not found in the KJV just like the word oneness is not found there.
Also, the phrase "United Pentecostal Church International" is not found in the KJV but some believe in it.

[PMBrown]

Originally Posted by Sam

What we usually refer to as "The Latter Rain Movement" came from western Canada in 1948. It spread through the Pentecostal (both trinity and oneness) churches pretty rapidly. There was an emphasis on the gifts of the Spirit. Some would say an "over" emphasis. There were extremes. There was an emphasis on laying on of hands to impart the Holy Ghost Baptism and to impart the gifts of the Spirit. Some taught that when a person received the Holy Ghost Baptism he received all the gifts and they just needed to be stirred up (preferably by a Latter Rain prophet laying hands on you). The gift of prophecy was very prominent. There were "personal prophecies" and people were getting all kinds of guidance about things like whom to marry, where to move, what their calling from God was, about leaving churches, etc. It came at a time when the Pentecostal churches had lost a lot of the fire and zeal of Azusa Street and were pretty well organized and complacent. People were getting enthused (carried away?) and some pastors were afraid of folks in their congregations visiting prophets and healers and hearing from someone besides them. They (pastors) also didn't like the idea that someone outside their organization might consider himself a prophet or apostle and feel like they had authority over him (the pastor) or "his" sheep. Also, pastors and organization were put down by some of the Latter Rain apostles and prophets. There was more emphasis on experience than on teaching and trinitarians and oneness were fellowshipping one another. The reaction from some pastors and officials was to condemn the whole movement and anyone associated with it. In my opinion, Bro. Norris' teaching that there could be no apostles or prophets in the 20th century church was a reaction against the Latter Rain movement. It was derisively referred to as "Latter Splatter" and "Latter Drizzle." The people involved were "loose" with "standards."

Elder Epley would be able to give you more information on this. I didn't receive the Holy Ghost Baptism until 1956 and I did not have personal contact with anyone who would be considered "latter rain." Also, anything I heard about it was negative.

Thank you Sam for taking the time to answer my question. I will certainly inquire further into the matter. I hope Elder Epley will not take offense to my questions, all asked in good faith, of course. From what you tell me and from what I've been able to find in other sources (which is not easy - perhaps i'm just looking in the wrong places, but the Latter Rain seems to have been very influential and poorly documented) it appears that this theology and approach has been revived in the "Third Wave" charismatic movement (i.e. the Vinyard Churches, the Toronto Blessing, Peter Wagner, Todd Bentley, Patricia King, Cindy Jacobs and many others). All the elements of Latter Rain theology seem to be there: the emphasis on prophecy, the firm belief in apostles and prophets, personal prophecy as a guide, quite a number of strange and/or extra-biblical doctrines (none of which seem to be systematically applied), the emphasis on gifts, the constant seeking for new and greater manifestations of the supernatural. The only truely new element I can see is the widespread teaching on spiritual warfare by binding territorial spirits - and its possible its also a preexisting teaching from the Latter Rain that I simply missed. What do you think about all of this? And are what I've noticed correct?

Also, there seems to be a link back to the Latter Rain via the Word of Faith movement through Kenneth Hagin, Fred Price, et al., in the teaching of manifest sons of God and serpent seed. Could you corroborate that? I'm sure I've seen snippets of manifest sons of God in the teachings of T. Bentley and Paul Cain and others in the "Third Wave" as well.

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by PMBrown

This raises an interesting point. Is there a difference between the Offices of the five-fold ministry and the physical administrative Offices that run the church?

Since they didn't have mega churches with paid staff and multi-million dollar facilities, I find it hard to believe that this would be a valid scriptural view.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Good thread, Sam!!

Not taking away from your work here, but I never use my pinky in my ear.

I hope you don't use Q-tips!!!!

[MissBrattified]

Excellent post, Sam.