I have four children, one 35 year old special needs son (difficult), a 23 year old very compliant son (easy), a 21 year old wonderful daughter(easy), then a 21 year old, creative, artist, question everything son (hard). Every one of these guys are loved unconditionally, but they all have required different approaches on mom and dad's part to understand and parent them. The middle two have been a breeze and always a joy (almost always), our 35 year old has taken everything we have had, likewise our 21 year old.
But as I have continued to love and to listen and to understand and reach them out to them they too are becoming more and more a joy, in other words we are becoming friends. Will God, who planted the love of our children in us, do any less for HIS CHILDREN? Just because someone is difficult and mean, does not necessarily mean they have "rejected the love of GOD", they simply don't KNOW Him yet.
I hope I have conveyed what I am trying to communicate??
I do see what you are attempting to communicate.
But can you explain why a lving God "drove" Adam out of the Garden? Why God allowed Achan to be stoned? Why He destroyed the earth by flood? Why He destroyed Sodm and Gomorrah by fire and brimstone?
One should bever confuse the love of God for humanity for unrestricted mercy. He is not willing that any should perish, but some will.
But can you explain why a lving God "drove" Adam out of the Garden? Why God allowed Achan to be stoned? Why He destroyed the earth by flood? Why He destroyed Sodm and Gomorrah by fire and brimstone?
One should bever confuse the love of God for humanity for unrestricted mercy. He is not willing that any should perish, but some will.
I agree, but I disagree that to perish is what tradition has taught that it is. Many are perishing (to waste) all around us, as the examples you present. I believe each of these examples exemplify God at work to eventually bring about the reconciliation of all things. Our physical lives are a thumbnail of God's plan for mankind. One definition of "judgment" is the setting of things right, using this connotation, "...it is appointed unto man once to die, and after that the (setting of things right) judgment". This in no way excuses sin or the rejection of Jesus' scarifice.
I am currently reading a book by Edited by Robin A. Parry & Christopher H. Partridge "Universal Salvation? the Current Debate" it is fairly in depth for and against by several authors. I particularly am drawn to Thomas Talbott's arguments in favor of. He has written a book "The Inescapable Love of God."
I believe this a debate that the church is going to have to engage straight away. JMHOs
Be Blessed I'm going to bed. Thanks for you responses, please continue.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
As God said, "Jacob I have loved but Esau I hated."
Hello, Chan we've had this conversation before haven't we?
If this quote from scripture actually means God "hated" Esau, and all those that Calvinists says He has not elected, then it would be accurate to say, "god is hateful". This scripture reflects the way God was dealing with Esau in contrast to Jacob, some children must be dealt with more severly than others. Esau was a tough guy, an outdoorsman, he proabably grunted more than conversed, Jacob was creative, artsy, and senistive, talkative, God dealt with each according to their bend.
God chose Esau as a vessel of dishonor for His purpose, this in no way is indicative of Esau's final end. God's severity and His love is loving and merciful, as a parent's love and severity is for the best of their children.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
I can remember my late pastor father, explaining that the word
hate did not always mean to hate as we think of it. But it means
to love less. I know God is no respector of persons because His
Word tells us so. That prodigal son's father loved that boy and
grieved over the temporary loss of his son. I believe he believed
he would see his son again because while the son was yet a great
way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell
on his neck, and kissed him. Now where was the father, that when
his son was yet a great (long) way off, he SAW him. Because he was
out looking for him, that's why!! Jesus was looking for you and me when
He came to this earh in flesh. He left the "Father's House" The throne
of heaven, took off His Kingly robes and came looking for that one lost
sheep. Have you ever wondered why one tribe was missing in Revelation.
The tribe of Dan (Jacob's son by Bilhah, Rachel's handmaiden) Rachel,
like Jacob's grandmother, Sarah, couldn't wait on God to give her children,
she had to help Him out with the situation. It never pays to get ahead of
God. (Father always knows best. He gives His best to those who love Him
and wait for Him. His Will, His Promise, His Way. They that wait upon the
LORD SHALL renew their strength, they shall mount up with wings as
eagles. They shall run and not be weary. They shall walk and not faint.
Jesus gave the example of two men who owed a creditor. One owed a
little and the other a whole lot. The creditor forgave both their debts.
Jesus asked, Who would love Him most. And Simon said, I suppose he
whom He forgave the most. Jesus told Simon he had judged right.
How much do you feel He has forgiven you (I'm not speaking of any
particular person). Do we feel He hasn't had to forgive us much as we
haven't been very bad!!! That what that self-righteous pharisee thought,
Lord, I am SOOOOOO glad that I am not like that publican. I pay my dues,
and I, I, I,, me, me, me!!!!! The publican beat on his breast and with head
bowed low, LORD, I am not even worthy..! I'm a sinner! Have mercy!! That
was his attitude!
If we feel we haven't much to be forgiven, just wait!!! We're not home
yet. And who wants to stay home and have the spirit of the elder brother!!!
Just some serious, sincere thoughts from a senior sister,
Falla39
Well, said Falla.
From my experience as a father, I think maybe "to love differently" might be a more clear understanding. I have had to grow personally to love my children according to their "shaping and bend", they are all different and had I not grown (and continue to do so) I would have alienated rather than matured in relationship. God as our Heavenly Father know exactly how to reach, love and guide each of His children, and He never ever gives up, nor overly forces.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
As God said, "Jacob I have loved but Esau I hated."
Dear Bro. Chan,
Are you a father? Do you have children? If not I can understand
why you would not relate to the 'love of a father toward his son".
And there are those who cannot relate to a loving father because
their earthly father was not a good example of a loving father. My
heart goes out to those who have not had a loving father and mother
here on earth. But to whom much is given shall much be required. In
other words, we are our brother's or sister's keeper. We must keep
them (as brothers and sisters) from being so overcome that they will
despair! Paul could have no doubt become overwhelmed with grief from
his past of having persecuted and consenting to some of their death.
Imagine the impact it had on a young man named Saul of Tarsus, as he
stood nearby, watching as Stephen was being stoned, before his eyes.
After he was transformed by the Light (Jesus), I am sure he felt he owed
a debt he could not pay, but Jesus had already paid a debt HE did not
owe!! Paul no doubt would possibly have become overcome by his past
had not it have been for the physican, Luke and his friend and counselor,
Barnabas, son of consolation! Barbabas consoled Paul as his friend.
I wonder have I done my best for JESUS,
who died upon the cruel tree.
To think of His great sacrifice at Calvary,
I know my Lord expects the best from me.
How many are the lost that I have lifted,
How many are the souls I've helped to free,
I wonder have I done my best for JESUS.
When He has done so much for me.
Does 70 years of self-willed living and rejection of the love of God equate to temporary damnation?
I will say that it is certainly more a "just recompense of reward", is God just?
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
Great post! And so much more does our heavenly father love us!
You are right, Rhoni. If we are "evil" in comparison to God, then God's love and mercy is greater than ours.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
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