Re: Bush OK's Execution of Army Death Row Prisoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy
Let me get this straight. You think the guy deserves the punishment of death, but after death, you hope he goes to Heaven? Do I understand you correctly?
I hope that he became a Christian while in prison and will make it to heaven. God will know if he sincerely repented or not.
I firmly believe that people who have committed crimes and then become Christians should still pay the price and serve the time or sentance, in this case death.
Years ago when some of the major Evangelical figures were trying to get a woman on Death Row in Texas off from her death penalty I opposed them.
I am glad she changed her life and came to God but she still has to pay the price for her crime. The good news is that if she r eally did become a Christian then she just made it to heaven before us.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
Re: Bush OK's Execution of Army Death Row Prisoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy
Ripping you apart? Wouldn't dream of it!
OK, maybe some gentle prodding. Do you think eternal torment is too severe of a punishment for his crimes?
Now there is a genius idea. Lets just do away with prisons and punishments for crime since God will handle it all in the end when they die and go to hell.
Timmy, are you taking your meds?
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
Re: Bush OK's Execution of Army Death Row Prisoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
Now there is a genius idea. Lets just do away with prisons and punishments for crime since God will handle it all in the end when they die and go to hell.
Timmy, are you taking your meds?
I'm only speaking of the "eternal" side of the issue. Do you have an answer for the question? Is it too severe?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Re: Bush OK's Execution of Army Death Row Prisoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy
I'm only speaking of the "eternal" side of the issue. Do you have an answer for the question? Is it too severe?
1. The death penalty is not too severe a peanlty on earth for murder.
2. Eternal dammnation is not too severe a penalty ultimately for murder.
One deals with earthly justice and one with eternal justice.
One could commit a crime and repent in prison and become a Christian. They would still have to pay for their crime on earth but would be assured eternal salvation upon dying.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
Re: Bush OK's Execution of Army Death Row Prisoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy
I'm only speaking of the "eternal" side of the issue. Do you have an answer for the question? Is it too severe?
Hell is not too severe for any of us! It's what we deserve, but because of the great love, grace and mercy of God we have the amazing opportunity to be relieved of the horrible punishment that sin has earned us. Your point?
Re: Bush OK's Execution of Army Death Row Prisoner
Eternal damnation is not punishment for any particular sin, but rather a refusal to repent for that sin. Should someone who still relishes in their behavior, refuses to repent, and would do it again, if given the chance be allowed to go to heaven?
I think God's laws are fair. He gives mercy to anyone who asks, regardless of their specific sin[s]. Everyone has the same opportunity. Man's laws deal with acts; God's laws address the state of one's heart.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
Re: Bush OK's Execution of Army Death Row Prisoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbundantGrace
Hell is not too severe for any of us! It's what we deserve, but because of the great love, grace and mercy of God we have the amazing opportunity to be relieved of the horrible punishment that sin has earned us. Your point?
Just to understand your take, that's all. (So far. ) Thanks for clarifying.
My take, of course, is very different. I have no problem saying yes, eternal torment is too severe, no matter what you may have done, or may have believed, or not believed. And I seriously doubt that God will inflict such a punishment on the vast majority of his creation. Some AFFers have reprimanded me for comparing God's fatherhood with human fatherhood, but what would you say about a parent that punishes his child for disobedience by holding the child's hand to a candle flame for a full minute? (I'd say throw him in jail!) Just his hand, not his entire body. Just for a minute, not forever.
As a Pentecostal, I remember feeling duty-bound to say God is God. He can do what He wants. We can't understand Him with our puny minds. He is just and He is merciful. He doesn't send anyone to hell -- people send themselves. (That's a good one!) He made a way. Etc., etc. So I don't blame you for thinking eternal torment is not "too severe". Or that the only "crime" worthy of eternal torment is not believing that one, specific faith (better choose carefully), and not following its instructions (if you can figure out which interpretation is right) to the letter. You believe what you've been taught. That's commendable, I suppose, if what you were taught is actually right.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Re: Bush OK's Execution of Army Death Row Prisoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy
Just to understand your take, that's all. (So far. ) Thanks for clarifying.
My take, of course, is very different. I have no problem saying yes, eternal torment is too severe, no matter what you may have done, or may have believed, or not believed. And I seriously doubt that God will inflict such a punishment on the vast majority of his creation. Some AFFers have reprimanded me for comparing God's fatherhood with human fatherhood, but what would you say about a parent that punishes his child for disobedience by holding the child's hand to a candle flame for a full minute? (I'd say throw him in jail!) Just his hand, not his entire body. Just for a minute, not forever.
As a Pentecostal, I remember feeling duty-bound to say God is God. He can do what He wants. We can't understand Him with our puny minds. He is just and He is merciful. He doesn't send anyone to hell -- people send themselves. (That's a good one!) He made a way. Etc., etc. So I don't blame you for thinking eternal torment is not "too severe". Or that the only "crime" worthy of eternal torment is not believing that one, specific faith (better choose carefully), and not following its instructions (if you can figure out which interpretation is right) to the letter. You believe what you've been taught. That's commendable, I suppose, if what you were taught is actually right.
OK Timmy... Let me clarify your position... You say that you doubt that God would send the vast majority of His creation to hell, so do you believe that the vast majority of His creation will be saved and in Heaven? If so then, who will be in hell and how did they wind up there? Please clarify...
Do you think eternal torment is too severe of a punishment for his crimes?
) Thanks for clarifying.
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