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  #11  
Old 03-28-2008, 01:33 PM
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deltaguitar deltaguitar is offline
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Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

Here is an article showing some Catholic beliefs regarding baptism. I was very suprised when I read this and noticed that the beliefs are very similar to the UPC's doctrine.


From chapter nine of Reasoning from the Scriptures with Catholics, by Ron Rhodes, (Eugene Oregon: Harvest House Publishers, 2000), pp. 162-170

The Roman Catholic Teaching: In Acts 2:38 we read, "And Peter said to them, `Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit:" Roman Catholics argue that this verse supports the necessity of baptism for salvation. Indeed, Ludwig Ott, citing this verse, tells us that "baptism has the power both of eradicating sin and of effecting inner sanctification."25

Response: Admittedly, this is not an easy verse to interpret. But a basic principle of Bible interpretation is that difficult passages are to be interpreted in light of the easy, clear verses. We should never build a theology on difficult passages.

As a backdrop, the great majority of passages dealing with salvation in the New Testament affirm that salvation is by faith alone. A good example is John 3:16,17 (NIV): "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Even Peter, who is the one who uttered the words in Acts 2:38, elsewhere acknowledges that a person is saved prior to baptism. For example, in Acts 10:47 we read Peter's words, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" Salvation came first for these people (as evidenced in their possession of the Holy Spirit), and baptism followed.

How, then, are we to understand Acts 2:38? A single word in the verse gives us the answer. The verse reads, "Peter replied, `Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"' (NIV, emphasis added).

Students of the Greek language have often pointed out that the Greek word for (eis) is a preposition that can indicate causality ("in order to attain") or a result ("because of"). An example of using for in a resultant sense is the sentence, "I'm taking an aspirin for my headache:' Obviously, this means I am taking an aspirin as a result of my headache. I am not taking an aspirin in order to attain a headache.

An example of using for in a causal sense is the sentence, "I’m going to the office for my paycheck." Obviously, this means I am going to the office in order to attain my paycheck.

In Acts 2:38 the word for is used in a resultant sense. The verse might be paraphrased, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ because of (or as a result of) the remission of sins." The verse is not saying "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ in order to attain the remission of sins."

Properly interpreted, then, this verse indicates that water baptism follows the salvation experience, not causes the salvation experience.



The Roman Catholic Teaching: In John 3:5 we read the words of Jesus: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Roman Catholics interpret this as meaning that baptism is required for salvation. Indeed, baptism is said to confer the grace of justification?26 "The universal necessity of this `rebirth' through Baptism is emphasized by Our Lord: `Unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God' (John 3:5)."27 Indeed, "Baptism, the door to life and to the kingdom of God, is the first sacrament of the New Law offered by Christ to all men that they might have eternal life (John 3:5)."28

Response: I begin with the observation that there are so many verses in John's Gospel that indicate belief in Christ as the sole condition for salvation that John would have to have been dishonest if in fact both belief in Christ and baptism were necessary for salvation (see John 5:24; 6:35; 7:38; 8:24; 9:35; 10:38; 11:26; 12:44-48; 20:31). However John 3:5 is interpreted, it must be in keeping with all these other verses.

Critical to a proper understanding of John 3:1-5 is verse 6: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit:' Flesh can only reproduce itself as flesh, and flesh cannot pass muster with God (see Romans 8:8). The law of reproduction is "after its kind" (see Genesis 1). So, likewise, the Spirit produces spirit.

In Nicodemus' case, we find a Pharisee who would have been trusting in his physical descent from Abraham for entrance into the Messiah's kingdom. The Jews believed that because they were physically related to Abraham, they were in a specially privileged position before God. Christ, however, denied such a possibility. Parents can transmit to their children only the nature that they themselves possess. Since each parent's nature, because of Adam's sin, is sinful, each parent transmits a sinful nature to the child. And what is sinful cannot enter the kingdom of God (verse 5). The only way someone can enter God's kingdom is to experience a spiritual rebirth, and this is precisely what Jesus is emphasizing to Nicodemus.

The problem is, Nicodemus did not initially comprehend Jesus' meaning. Nicodemus wrongly concluded that Jesus was speaking of something related to physical birth, but could not understand how a person could go through physical birth a second time (John 3:4). Jesus picked up on Nicodemus' line of thought and sought to move the argument from physical birth to spiritual birth.

Notice how Jesus went about His explanation to Nicodemus. He first speaks about being "born of water and the Spirit" in John 3:5, and then explains what He means by this in verse 6. It would seem that "born of water" in verse 5 is parallel to "born of the flesh" in verse 6, just as "born of...the Spirit" in verse 5 is parallel to "born of the Spirit" in verse 6. Jesus' message, then, is that just as each person has had a physical birth to live on earth, so he or she roust also have a spiritual birth in order to enter the spiritual kingdom of God. A person must be "born from above:' Seen in this light, this verse has nothing whatsoever to do with water baptism.

I should note that the fact that some of the early church fathers believed this verse referred to baptism is not decisive for us. Indeed, the fathers were finite and fallible human beings. Only the Bible is infallible. Further, the fathers often offered mistaken and conflicting interpretations of the same verse. Hence, there is no consensus among the fathers on many issues. This being the case, the fathers cannot be cited as some infallible indicator of what the correct interpretation must be.

The Roman Catholic Teaching: In Mark 16:16 we read, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." Roman Catholics teach that in this verse Jesus is saying that baptism is necessary for salvation. We are told that "through Baptism as through a door men enter the Church."29

Response: Notice the latter part of the verse: "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned" (Mark 15:16, emphasis added). It is unbelief that brings ************ation not a lack of being baptized. When someone rejects the Gospel, refusing to believe it, that person is ************ed.

In regard to the question of whether baptism is necessary for salvation, consider the words of the apostle Paul: "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power" (1 Corinthians 1:17 NIV). Paul here draws a clear distinction between baptism aid the gospel. And since it is the gospel that saves (1 Corinthians 15:1,2), baptism is clearly not necessary to attain salvation.

That is not to say that baptism is unimportant. Baptism should be the first act of obedience to God following a person's conversion to Christ. But even though we should obey God and get baptized, we must not forget flat our faith in Christ is what saves us (Acts 16:31; John 3:10, not baptism. Baptism is basically a public profession of faith. It says to the whole world, "I'm a believer in Christ Wd have identified my life with Him:'
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  #12  
Old 03-28-2008, 01:34 PM
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Ferd Ferd is offline
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Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaguitar View Post
Actually if you are UPC you probably have a lot in common with the Catholic's works based salvation.

Here is a Catholic vs. Protestant test you can take. See how you score. I scored a perfect 100% protestant but my pastor who only scored 90%.

http://www.inchristalone.org/CathOrProt.html
hey look everybody! its a DanA convert! LOL!

dude thou regurgitatist the blatherings of a crusader who fights with a broken sword! LOL!
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  #13  
Old 03-28-2008, 01:34 PM
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deltaguitar deltaguitar is offline
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Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

The Roman Catholic Teaching: In Titus 3:5 we read, "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit." This verse is interpreted as meaning that baptism leads to regeneration. "It is through baptism that this regeneration takes place; hence Paul calls this Sacrament `the bath of regeneration' (Tit. 3:5)."30

Response: The Greek word for baptism (baptidzo) is not used in this verse. Paul did not use this word because he was not referring to baptism. Paul refers to "washing of regeneration" (Greek: loutrou) to describe how believers are cleansed of guilt at the moment of salvation.

The fact that this is a "washing of regeneration" indicates that a spiritual washing is in view, not a literal water-baptism kind of washing. Besides, the very words used in this verse point out beyond any doubt that our salvation is not a result of doing things (like getting baptized) but is based entirely on God's mercy.
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  #14  
Old 03-28-2008, 01:38 PM
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deltaguitar deltaguitar is offline
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Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

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Originally Posted by Ferd View Post
hey look everybody! its a DanA convert! LOL!

dude thou regurgitatist the blatherings of a crusader who fights with a broken sword! LOL!
Thank you for giving credit where it is due. But there are others. I have read the books of Bernard and Seagraves as well. And I have to include my pastor as a great influence in truth.
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  #15  
Old 03-28-2008, 06:48 PM
Jason B Jason B is offline
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Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

Delta,

if your comfortable with that view of salvation, so be it, its not worth going back and forth over, but it sure seems to me you have to take a whole lotta scripture to mean something other than what it plainly means. I just can't get over someone saying that one is born again by repentance, no New Testament preacher taught this. And the very definition of born again is a birth of water and the spirit, neither happens at repentance.
(although it is possible to recieve the spirit at repentance).
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  #16  
Old 03-28-2008, 08:57 PM
Jason B Jason B is offline
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Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

I couldn't help myself.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=130517
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  #17  
Old 03-28-2008, 11:58 PM
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izzyschwartz izzyschwartz is offline
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Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

[QUOTE=deltaguitar;426554]Students of the Greek language have often pointed out that the Greek word for (eis) is a preposition that can indicate causality ("in order to attain") or a result ("because of"). An example of using for in a resultant sense is the sentence, "I'm taking an aspirin for my headache:' Obviously, this means I am taking an aspirin as a result of my headache. I am not taking an aspirin in order to attain a headache.

An example of using for in a causal sense is the sentence, "I’m going to the office for my paycheck." Obviously, this means I am going to the office in order to attain my paycheck.

In Acts 2:38 the word for is used in a resultant sense. The verse might be paraphrased, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ because of (or as a result of) the remission of sins." The verse is not saying "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ in order to attain the remission of sins."

Properly interpreted, then, this verse indicates that water baptism follows the salvation experience, not causes the salvation experience.



Oh please, no serious scholar of the Greek use of the word here translated as "for" would ever come up with this meaning. Many students of Greek do interpret it this way because of a doctrinal bias ("it would imply works were necessary" they say). Much of what passes as scholarship in Greek translation is anything but.

This use would be superfluous, akin to saying, "I am going to the store because I have milk"

Also, to say the Catholic Church doctrine sounds similar to UPC doctrine, while untrue for the most part, is not really that far off.

The Roman Catholic Church is indisputably the direct and unbroken continuation of the original Apostolic Church which began on the day of Pentecost. While they became apostate early in the first century and have drifted further and further from the true faith once delivered to the saints, much truth remains in their doctrine.

Last edited by izzyschwartz; 03-29-2008 at 12:14 AM. Reason: distinguished quote
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  #18  
Old 03-29-2008, 12:24 AM
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BrotherEastman BrotherEastman is offline
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Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Great Job! Your approach was kind, I'm impressed Jason.
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  #19  
Old 03-29-2008, 02:05 PM
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Fiyahstarter Fiyahstarter is offline
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Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
DUDE! Is that you responding out there on that cath forum???

YOU ROCK!!!

Thanks for representing us!
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  #20  
Old 10-13-2011, 11:55 PM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: You've Got To Read This!!!

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Originally Posted by ForeverBlessed View Post
They are so steeped in tradition though... reminds me of some other peeps I know. really truly though, I think the church, all churches have been impacted by catholism to a certain extent. Breaking out of that mindset on some things is not easy to do.
The Catholic Church claims all churches should be under their umbrella. Catholic means universal.

When I attended UPC, I had a nursing supervisor tell me that one day I will return to the "Mother Church". Little did I know back then that plans are in the making for exactly that to happen.
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