Not enough faith? Too much sin?

[Timmy]

Here's what I find disturbing. These people put their full trust in God, and it didn't work. I don't see how they can be criticized one iota, by people who say they believe the Bible is inspired and infallible. Did God promise to heal or not? Does anyone here really believe all the healing promises?

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

That's a promise. Most Bible-believers that I know will freely admit that, even joyfully claim it, cling to it.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Preachers love to stress "we are". We are already healed, they say! Just have to accept it, they say. Um, well, no. If you are sick, you are sick. You are not healed "already". You may be healed at some point in the future, but you are not already healed, now.

Some people say if circumstance doesn't agree with scripture, scripture is right and circumstance is wrong. Some people need a reality check. Circumstance (reality) is what it is. If your theology doesn't line up with reality, you should get a new theology.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Here's what I find disturbing. These people put their full trust in God, and it didn't work.

You have no idea where there trust was. Trust is in the heart and it is in the quite of the night, alone that reveals a mans heart. What you think on and meditate on not the front you put on for others to see.

You have no idea the fear they struggled with, the doubt that they housed.

Your assumption is that these people did everything right and God did something wrong. How foolish would that be.

God has a perfect system, there is no lack, there is no failure. It is all based upon the heart of man. When failure is the final result it's man that missed it not God.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

You have no idea where there trust was. Trust is in the heart and it is in the quite of the night, alone that reveals a mans heart. What you think on and meditate on not the front you put on for others to see.

You have no idea the fear they struggled with, the doubt that they housed.

Your assumption is that these people did everything right and God did something wrong. How foolish would that be.

God has a perfect system, there is no lack, there is no failure. It is all based upon the heart of man. When failure is the final result it's man that missed it not God.

True, I can only go by what they say and do. They say they trusted God. And they definitely behaved as if they trusted God, and God alone.

I don't believe God did something wrong. That wasn't my point. My point is that maybe, just maybe, God didn't write (or inspire men to write) those promises. It is inconceivable that God would ever promise something and break the promise.

And my main point is that those who believe the Bible must either not criticize these people (and yes, criticize God instead for breaking His promise) OR criticize them (as you seem to be doing, implicitly) for not following all the rules. I guess you think they didn't have faith. You seem to be saying they were just putting on a front. They "missed it".

You think their daughter is now dead, because of their "missing it". Because they were putting on a front. They did not have faith.

That seems extremely unlikely, to me.

Not trying to put words in your mouth. Just drawing logical conclusions from what you said. Did I miss something?

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I don't rip them in the sense that they had any malicious intent whatsoever. I don't think either of these people have a bad bone in their bodies.
Having said that..... Many people who are (rightfully) charged with vehicular manslaughter probably had no malicious intent either AND are really nice people.

I made the misstake of showing this story to my wife (who knows a bit more about medical "stuff" than I do) and she went (predictably) ballistic. A simply blood test followed by a shot of insulin, and she would be alive today.
We will never know HER wishes in this. An episode of Law&Order which aired about 10 years ago dealt with this topic. They ended up prosecuting the parents for murder AFTER discovering that the child actually called for help at one point (which was heard on the 911 call, which itself was used as evidence -after all, why call 911 if you think all that is needed is faith?)

Many years ago my father knew a man who was 'healed' at a William Brahnam crusade. He died the same way as this little girl. Completely unnecessary.

Why do we think it so wrong and possibly criminal when it happens to a little child but when a person does it to themselves we always pass it off by saying "Well I disagree but admire their stand."?

[RandyWayne]

......Who knows. Maybe it is harder to have faith for yourself than it is for someone else.
It is also easier to forgive someone for something they did to someone else... then turn around and criticize the person who received the slight in the first place and say "I forgave them... Why can't you?". I see this happening ALL the time in the church.

There are also people who dance around in a state of euphoria claiming that they are healed, only to find out that all the "dancing" did far more damage. I ask the question that others have asked on this subject, "Why doesn't God heal the amputee?" -instead it's always something hidden that the person can claim a healing for without showing physical signs.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Having known these two, they are wonderful and nice people. But I can also guarantee that they are feeling guilty for not having taken their daughter to the doctor (which WOULD have saved her life) and even MORE guilt for feeling their first guilt. Meaning, their faith has been "tested" and found wanting. A bit more faith is all that was needed! They must be "weak" for actually wondering if the doctor might have been the wise choice. That sort of thing.

I read a book by Randy Singer dealing with these issues in a fictional story.A man is put on trial for the death of his son when he refuses to get medical help for him. The title of the book is "Dying Declaration". If you are into Legal thrillers with a Christian bent, you might enjoy it.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Timmy

True, I can only go by what they say and do. They say they trusted God. And they definitely behaved as if they trusted God, and God alone.

Absolutely true! Faith is a law that receives our victory. It works a certain way.

Read the story in Mark 1 (about verse 40) about the leper who came to Jesus. He said something to the affect of, "Jesus if you will you can make me whole"

It is then written that Jesus was moved with compassion and said, "I will" and healed the man.

Reality check! The man's faith did not cause the healing, the compassion of God brought it about.

Compare him with the woman with the issue of blood who said, "If I touch Him I will be healed" The it states, she drew virtue (power) our of Jesus and Jesus turned and said, "You faith has made you whole"

There are levels of faith and faith has an operation of how it works. Most Christians live within the compassion realm and not the faith realm that is why they are "surprised" when they get their prayers answered.

I don't believe God did something wrong.

Good, God is perfect and created a perfect system for us to live in. It's just that God's people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.

...maybe, God didn't write (or inspire men to write) those promises.

It's not real difficult to figure out what God has promised. He had it all written down for us.

OR criticize them (as you seem to be doing, implicitly) for not following all the rules. I guess you think they didn't have faith.

Yes and no....

First, it's not a criticism it's a reality. If we are believing for something according to the will of God and we fail. We didn't have the faith to receive it. God's people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge (Hosea 4:6) and all things have been given to us through the knowledge of God (first or second Peter chapter one about verse 3)

It's not that I think that they don't have faith, I would say probably they gave up on their faith some where along the way or allowed fear to operate instead of faith.

Fear is just a negative form of faith. Fear is a receiver just as faith is a receiver. We fear the bite of a rattlesnake because of our faith in its ability to harm us.

If you are believing for healing and are afraid you will die, you are not in faith no matter how many times you get hands laid on you. Faith is tied to confidence and where confidence is there is no fear.

You seem to be saying they were just putting on a front. They "missed it".

No and yes. They weren't putting on a front. I am confident they were operating in what they knew. The problem is that their lack of knowledge was apparently not sufficient.

God has promised our faith can overcome the world and that He will not allow more to come on us than what we are able to overcome. Therefore, when we fail it's either because we gave up on our faith or tried to take on something greater than our developed faith.

So, yes they missed it. Of course I have no idea who we are talking about but if it didn't work, they missed it some place.

You think their daughter is now dead, because of their "missing it". Because they were putting on a front. They did not have faith.

I don't know the situation, I am speaking in general concepts and biblical laws of faith.

They could have had faith and their daughter was in fear, they could have not developed their faith, they could have said they were believing yet all they talked about was the gravity of the situation (out of the abundance of the heart....)

There are a lot of variables, but God promises victory in all things.

I had a person (parents) in our church diagnosed with leukemia
(adult daughter).

Adult daughter was raised in church, but turned her back on God. When diagnosed made a wise decision to get her life straight.

I was told she would be in service the next Sunday and as I was praying the Lord dealt strongly with her situation and dropped the following Word into my spirit:


Prov 3:6-8
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
(KJV)

She came to church, I ministered to her, laid hands on her and the power of God hit her in an amazing way. The next week (I think Tuesday) she went to the doctor and her numbers were normal.

Praise the Lord!!!!!! But wait a minute....she died about 8 months later.

The "doctor" said that the cancer was probably in remission and that she should still go to City of Hope Hospital and go through the treatments. "The family" decided that this would be the "wise" thing to do.

Explain to me the wisdom in a healed person being treated for cancer? The fear of the unknown was more powerful than faith in God's word even when it was supported by the doctors test.

As soon as they told me she was going to check herself into the hospital I knew in my spirit she would die. Praise the Lord she at least got herself back right with God before that.

Now I had to deal with all the questions, "why would God allow this to happen." God didn't allow it to happen, He healed her they were just unwilling to have faith in what happened.


Bottom line: God's Word works when you stay with the Word!

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

......Who knows. Maybe it is harder to have faith for yourself than it is for someone else.
It is also easier to forgive someone for something they did to someone else... then turn around and criticize the person who received the slight in the first place and say "I forgave them... Why can't you?". I see this happening ALL the time in the church.

There are also people who dance around in a state of euphoria claiming that they are healed, only to find out that all the "dancing" did far more damage. I ask the question that others have asked on this subject, "Why doesn't God heal the amputee?" -instead it's always something hidden that the person can claim a healing for without showing physical signs.

Well I beg to differ RW. I was healed of epilepsy and that includes the physical signs. Was also healed of the mumps, was prayed for and they instantly went down. I have also seen a tumor come off a girl's face when prayed for. So it's not ALWAY'S a hidden condition.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

Well I beg to differ RW. I was healed of epilepsy and that includes the physical signs. Was also healed of the mumps, was prayed for and they instantly went down. I have also seen a tumor come off a girl's face when prayed for. So it's not ALWAY'S a hidden condition.

I have seen REAL healings myself, they are just not nearly as common as the rows of people claiming the "pain in my hips just went away!" found at a typical revival service.

She came to church, I ministered to her, laid hands on her and the power of God hit her in an amazing way. The next week (I think Tuesday) she went to the doctor and her numbers were normal.

Praise the Lord!!!!!! But wait a minute....she died about 8 months later.

The "doctor" said that the cancer was probably in remission and that she should still go to City of Hope Hospital and go through the treatments. "The family" decided that this would be the "wise" thing to do.

Explain to me the wisdom in a healed person being treated for cancer? The fear of the unknown was more powerful than faith in God's word even when it was supported by the doctors test.

As soon as they told me she was going to check herself into the hospital I knew in my spirit she would die. Praise the Lord she at least got herself back right with God before that.

Now I had to deal with all the questions, "why would God allow this to happen." God didn't allow it to happen, He healed her they were just unwilling to have faith in what happened.


Bottom line: God's Word works when you stay with the Word!

So she was "healed" but when the parents decided to be careful God re-cursed her with the cancer?
I am sorry.... But that is totally bogus man.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

So she was "healed" but when the parents decided to be careful God re-cursed her with the cancer?
I am sorry.... But that is totally bogus man.

That would be really bogus man, if cancer was God cursing her.

Your definition of "careful" is the Bible's definition of "faithless."

When Peter looked at the waves he sank...when Phillip wanted to verify he was called faithless, when the disciples called to Jesus because the boat was sinking they were faithless.

God's Word works, faith works, and fear works. But fear and faith do not work together, whether you feel it's bogus or not.