Control Freaks Running The WPF??

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by embonpoint

Another thread got me to thinking about this.

Let me first state that I am not a part of the UPC and have no intention of joining the WPF. So I don’t really have a dog in this fight. That being said there is a real irony that strikes me in my observation from the sideline.

One of the most vociferous and repetitious attacks on these men, and conservatives in general, is that they are motivated by a desire to control and a hunger for power. But what real power or control will they wield in the WPF.

These so-called controllers of the WPF do not
License ministers
Affiliate churches
Have Districts with all their officials
Preclude anyone from participation based on affiliation thus the assertion that they are not truly an organization as we know them today.

What is a control freak? Someone that HAS to be IN control right? Well if they no longer are in a position to control perhaps they decide to move on and start a new org from the ground up ensuring future control? Having said that I don't know what all or any of these men are control freaks either. They ARE an organization. An organization does not need to have all of the above in order to qualify as an organization. Don't know how you came to that conclusion

But their detractors want to kick them out because they
Held a meeting without permission
Invited ministers without org approval
Have financial involvement out side the org

I wonder who is interested in controlling whom here?

Really? when and where did you see this? Is this a fact?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Rev

It's like preaching a short sermon. Would like to send an offering? Or I'll come by and pick it up just like Rev. Charles

Revren Charls...bbbbbut I ain't got no church right now so....ttttell ya what..you call me...aaaaaand I'll come pick it up (unintelligable comment)

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Revren Charls...bbbbbut I ain't got no church right now so....ttttell ya what..you call me...aaaaaand I'll come pick it up (unintelligable comment)

There you go being funny again.........

[Praxeas]

Eh....but I was being serious.....

[Neck]

Originally Posted by embonpoint

Another thread got me to thinking about this.

Let me first state that I am not a part of the UPC and have no intention of joining the WPF. So I don’t really have a dog in this fight. That being said there is a real irony that strikes me in my observation from the sideline.

One of the most vociferous and repetitious attacks on these men, and conservatives in general, is that they are motivated by a desire to control and a hunger for power. But what real power or control will they wield in the WPF.

These so-called controllers of the WPF do not
License ministers
Affiliate churches
Have Districts with all their officials
Preclude anyone from participation based on affiliation thus the assertion that they are not truly an organization as we know them today.

But their detractors want to kick them out because they
Held a meeting without permission
Invited ministers without org approval
Have financial involvement out side the org

I wonder who is interested in controlling whom here?

They do however pastor churches.

These saints will follow them to the end of the age.

No matter what brand of soapbox heft is weighted upon the people to have to carry and bare.

Thank God the weights and fetters have been shaken off some....

To me the UPCI and the WPF just preach what you can and can't do.

But never offer any sunstantial direction for growth or revivial.

They preach separation as their foot hold..

Their bylaws are always 5 times longer than their articles of faith...

Originally Posted by embonpoint

Another thread got me to thinking about this.

Let me first state that I am not a part of the UPC and have no intention of joining the WPF. So I don’t really have a dog in this fight. That being said there is a real irony that strikes me in my observation from the sideline.

One of the most vociferous and repetitious attacks on these men, and conservatives in general, is that they are motivated by a desire to control and a hunger for power. But what real power or control will they wield in the WPF.

These so-called controllers of the WPF do not
License ministers
Affiliate churches
Have Districts with all their officials
Preclude anyone from participation based on affiliation thus the assertion that they are not truly an organization as we know them today.

But their detractors want to kick them out because they
Held a meeting without permission
Invited ministers without org approval
Have financial involvement out side the org

I wonder who is interested in controlling whom here?

You are wrong.

1. Paragraph # 2 does not take into account that some of the WPF's critics have become such after many years of observing the individual actions of the collective "T-6" and their detractors. Give it a little time, and you will see the heavy hand of these men - especially when dissention among their ranks occurs.

2. While the WPF does not at this time appear to do the things you mention, have you considered that since this is a "start-up," just maybe they are going to accrue capital for a period of time before embarking on an infrastructure expansion? Could it be that a few of the larger churches affiliated with the WPF will in fact ordain ministers from other smaller churches, offering them a "daughter work" package, providing the support and resources that these pastors will lose by leaving the UPC? After all, what are those dues and tithes they intend to collect going to be used for anyway?

3. The detractors want to kick these men out because they have betrayed the "good faith" ascribed to them by their affiliation with the UPC, and have in fact breached the contract they joined into by affiliating. I don’t want to be mean, but the UPC isn’t the only corporate entity where a person can excel and gain notoriety, power and wealth by simple virtue of their smooth speaking ability and perceived wisdom. This is not rocket science, no, it is much more important than that. However, some seem to believe that by adding a few letters to the end of their name, they have increased in stature and power. A humble grandmother who reads and believes her Bible with a clear God-given understanding can accomplish more than a misguided, puffed-up suit in crocodile shoes with a degree in exegetical theology. On the other hand, there is most definitely nothing wrong with furthering ones knowledge by attending seminary; I just want to be clear that some are easily swayed by simple verbal wordsmithing. These men were/are licensed ministers with the UPC, and as such agreed to the statement "...admonishing all brethren that they shall not contend for their different views to the disunity of the body."

4. Of course the WPF places no restriction on affiliation. After all, one of the "T-6" is running a Bible college affiliated with Patten University, a Trinitarian organization. Ask yourself this question: What is more harmful - advertising a UPC church on TV, or affiliating with a group that willfully spreads false Trinitarian doctrine? If said T-6 member wanted to have a Bible College, he should have petitioned the UPC for the currently unused charter formerly assigned to Conquers Bible College in Portland, Oregon. Then again, maybe that wouldn’t have fit into the long-range planning that is finally coming to fruition.

So, to answer your question, no one in the UPC is trying to control these "wayward" bretheren. They are simply going to hold them to the terms of the agreement that their affiliation entailed.

[embonpoint]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

What is a control freak? Someone that HAS to be IN control right? Well if they no longer are in a position to control perhaps they decide to move on and start a new org from the ground up ensuring future control? Having said that I don't know what all or any of these men are control freaks either. They ARE an organization. An organization does not need to have all of the above in order to qualify as an organization. Don't know how you came to that conclusion

I was not arguing whether or not they are an organization, but pointing out why they assert they are not. But since you bring it up, the UPC manual only precludes belonging to secret societies and being licensed or ordained by another organization. They're definitely not secret and do not license or ordain so even if they are another organization it doesn't matter, theoretically.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Really? when and where did you see this? Is this a fact?

Well it seems I've seen it almost daily right here on AFF. Just a few examples picked at random without trying to put any particular posters on the spot. In the interest of full disclosure these quotes are all truncated.

As to having a meeting without permission how about the SG letter

Originally Posted by Theophil

January 8, 2008
[/B] If these men still hold their UPC credentials, then this meeting is ministerially unethical. The Oklahoma District was not contacted or informed about this meeting.[B][U]……..
…. Some who are leading this meeting have well-earned reputations for not finishing what they start, proselytizing, and wanting to be the kingpin of something. Some of the names printed on promotional materials for "Tampa" have been used without consent (another ploy previously used by some of the preferred leaders).

Iviting without permission

Originally Posted by pelathais

To use the the UPC mailing list you must state the reason, cause or event that you are promoting. How do you imagine J.J. let this one get by?
I can answer that: he didn't. The list was obtained for another purpose and then used for the WwPF mailing.

Having divided financial allegiance

Originally Posted by NLYP

So.....If I am upc AND wwpf.....where does my financial alliegence lie? ….They WILL want their members to support their works.
So whats a "Dual" membership man to do???
I say this...ITS a ploy to get them in the door.
I just have serious problems with the "dual" thing.....

On being based on control

Originally Posted by Ron Turner

I know some of these guys personally. They are very controlling. At least the guys in my district.

Originally Posted by Mrs. LPW

Tulsa, in my mind, has proven itself to be about having control.

These are just a few examples but hope they answer your question as to my source.

[embonpoint]

Originally Posted by Draw4Tacos

You are wrong.

1. Paragraph # 2 does not take into account that some of the WPF's critics have become such after many years of observing the individual actions of the collective "T-6" and their detractors. Give it a little time, and you will see the heavy hand of these men - especially when dissention among their ranks occurs.

2. While the WPF does not at this time appear to do the things you mention, have you considered that since this is a "start-up," just maybe they are going to accrue capital for a period of time before embarking on an infrastructure expansion? Could it be that a few of the larger churches affiliated with the WPF will in fact ordain ministers from other smaller churches, offering them a "daughter work" package, providing the support and resources that these pastors will lose by leaving the UPC? After all, what are those dues and tithes they intend to collect going to be used for anyway?

3. The detractors want to kick these men out because they have betrayed the "good faith" ascribed to them by their affiliation with the UPC, and have in fact breached the contract they joined into by affiliating. I don’t want to be mean, but the UPC isn’t the only corporate entity where a person can excel and gain notoriety, power and wealth by simple virtue of their smooth speaking ability and perceived wisdom. This is not rocket science, no, it is much more important than that. However, some seem to believe that by adding a few letters to the end of their name, they have increased in stature and power. A humble grandmother who reads and believes her Bible with a clear God-given understanding can accomplish more than a misguided, puffed-up suit in crocodile shoes with a degree in exegetical theology. On the other hand, there is most definitely nothing wrong with furthering ones knowledge by attending seminary; I just want to be clear that some are easily swayed by simple verbal wordsmithing. These men were/are licensed ministers with the UPC, and as such agreed to the statement "...admonishing all brethren that they shall not contend for their different views to the disunity of the body."

4. Of course the WPF places no restriction on affiliation. After all, one of the "T-6" is running a Bible college affiliated with Patten University, a Trinitarian organization. Ask yourself this question: What is more harmful - advertising a UPC church on TV, or affiliating with a group that willfully spreads false Trinitarian doctrine? If said T-6 member wanted to have a Bible College, he should have petitioned the UPC for the currently unused charter formerly assigned to Conquers Bible College in Portland, Oregon. Then again, maybe that wouldn’t have fit into the long-range planning that is finally coming to fruition.

So, to answer your question, no one in the UPC is trying to control these "wayward" bretheren. They are simply going to hold them to the terms of the agreement that their affiliation entailed.

I was making an observation from the sideline. And asking a question. I still believe the observation is valid and the question pertinent
.
Btw I have been either in the fray or on the sideline for some time.

You seem to have a problem with one particular organizer and that is too bad.
My experience is that the "admonition" you quote has long been a handy tool to "control" the actions of others. It seem to vary broadly in its application.

Again I ask who is seeking to control whom?

[Coonskinner]

It's funny that I have had to read slurs about uneducated, ignorant, hayseed preachers around here forever, until all of a sudden we have one of the Tulsa men with a degree, and now we are reading about puffed up suits with letters following their name, and how a simple grandmother can do more for God.

Just another item to drop in the file labeled "Things That Make You Go Hmmmm."

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by embonpoint

One of the most vociferous and repetitious attacks on these men, and conservatives in general, is that they are motivated by a desire to control and a hunger for power. But what real power or control will they wield in the WPF.

These so-called controllers of the WPF do not
License ministers

They do have a membership that includes memberships dues!

Affiliate churches

Well duhhh! Do you think they would get any churches to join them if they had to be affilated?

Have Districts with all their officials

It's just now getting off the ground! Let's check it out in ten years!

Preclude anyone from participation based on affiliation thus the assertion that they are not truly an organization as we know them today.

If they have no wish to be an organization, they could have been much more effective being a sub group of the UPCI.

But their detractors want to kick them out because they held a meeting without permission

Since when did a UPCI pastor need permission to hold a meeting?

Invited ministers without org approval

They used the UPCI mailing list without premission. This mailing list is the property of the UPCI. This meeting was not in the best interest of the UPCI.

Have financial involvement out side the org

???????

I wonder who is interested in controlling whom here?

An interesting question! When they lost control of the UPCI by losing res #4, they took their ball to start a new group which they COULD control!

The answer to your question is obvious!

Thanks for the post!