We Must Rethink A Few Things

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by embonpoint

You make several errant assumptions

1. That the UPC is a hierarchal organization as the RCC was. Does this make the GS on a par with the Pope. Does he speak Ex Cathedra?

There is no comparrison. No, the DS does not speak, nor does he claim to speak ExCathedra.

2. That the UPC hierarchy represents divine authority.

There are principles of submission that cannot be denied.

3. That if men do not submit to an organization that they are not submitted to spiritual authority.

Not just any organization...just the organization that they recognized as authority to which they made submissions in times past...whether it is in fact divine or not. There is something about submission to authority whether it is send down from heaven in the exact form as it should be or not that qualifies a man of God.

4. That John Wesley and Martin Luther are the examples Apostolic ministries should follow.

In the case of John Wesley that I mentioned, yes, I held him up as a godly example to Apostolic ministries. Impotent Apostolic ministers are incapable of following that godly example, that great preacher of holiness and righteousness.

Oh well..... Why am I not surprised?

So tell me. Why are you not surprised?

[Joseph Miller]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Some are of the opinion that those men are not your spiritual authority.

I understand that. I am of a different opinion, which one is right? I don't know. I just know how I feel.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

Martin Luther also had some VERY legitimate beefs with the Catholic church. He posted them on his door as Thesises for discussion. He did not leave, he was issued a papal bull (told to shutup), which he burned, then was excommunicated.

The church threw him out because they could not tolerate the light he was shining on their sinful activities.

Did the UPC tolerate the conservative questioning of methods and theologies? To my knowledge there was never any interferance. We have always been free to nail our 95 Thesises to the doors of our churches without fear of dismissal as long as our spirits are right, and we don't try to rip the organization apart.

Amen. Very good post.

There has always been freedom and much latitude among the ministry of the UPC as seen from the very formation to express and to nail as many Thesises as they desire, to the church house door. It has been done many times and in very straight forward fashion. My first experience with that was in a business meeting in Little Rock Ark during a Gen. Conference. I remember a Memphis pastor by the name of E. E. McNatt nailed his thesises to the wall with a railroad spike, using a sledge hammer. Give and take pursued. In the end, there was no break up. Humility and brotherly love prevailed. It has happened many times. But, it takes big spirits, large hearts and at least a little kernel of the love of God for it to happen as it should.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

In essence I think I agree. But when does one leave?

I believe that John Wesley is a godly example for all to follow. Holy living, righteous judgment and heaven born preaching accompanied with the Holy Ghost and fire, standing on the Word of God will either stir up the fellowship that you are in or as in the case of John Wesley and others, it will make you persona-non-gratta, in which case you might expect a writ of excommunication. That is the godly way. I am not speaking of becoming an agitating nut ball either. That will also get you a personal walk to the church door.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Amen. Very good post.

There has always been freedom and much latitude among the ministry of the UPC as seen from the very formation to express and to nail as many Thesises as they desire, to the church house door. It has been done many times and in very straight forward fashion. My first experience with that was in a business meeting in Little Rock Ark during a Gen. Conference. I remember a Memphis pastor by the name of E. E. McNatt nailed his thesises to the wall with a railroad spike, using a sledge hammer. Give and take pursued. In the end, there was no break up. Humility and brotherly love prevailed. It has happened many times. But, it takes big spirits, large hearts and at least a little kernel of the love of God for it to happen as it should.

Into what did he drive the railroad spike? Just wondering. I think I heard that story long ago but was given no details.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

I believe that John Wesley is a godly example for all to follow. Holy living, righteous judgment and heaven born preaching accompanied with the Holy Ghost and fire, standing on the Word of God will either stir up the fellowship that you are in or as in the case of John Wesley and others, it will make you persona-non-gratta, in which case you might expect a writ of excommunication. That is the godly way. I am not speaking of becoming an agitating nut ball either. That will also get you a personal walk to the church door.

One must stay until he is excommunicated? How about when the church ceases to be one?

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Into what did he drive the railroad spike? Just wondering. I think I heard that story long ago but was given no details.

I simply used that as a metaphor to underscore how forcefully, how powerfully he drove home his opposition to a matter under discussion in a business meeting then. Though the matter under discussion has long been forgotten by me, the man, the power and force of personality in driving home that point was like Martin Luther's nail, but in this case, a railroad spike.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

One must stay until he is excommunicated? How about when the church ceases to be one?

Stay and preach until the church IS one. If there is no repentance, the preacher of righteosness will be stoned. Later his tombstone will be garnished with laruels of fond memories. The preacher of righteosness may indeed lose his head in the house of backslidden Herods.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

I simply used that as a metaphor to underscore how forcefully, how powerfully he drove home his opposition to a matter under discussion in a business meeting then. Though the matter under discussion has long been forgotten by me, the man, the power and force of personality in driving home that point was like Martin Luther's nail, but in this case, a railroad spike.

Oh, thanks. I did know an elderly gentleman who did that literally and briefly became something of a folk hero. Though he used scotch tape.

[Thinking]

Reformed Dave,

Where do you believe your father would have fit into all this?