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Originally Posted by TrmptPraise
I had previously decided not to reply to this post, but I suppose everyone changes their mind once in a while.
It is my belief that you are taking the word "us" out of context. Paul was speaking to the church in Ephesus. He was not speaking to the individual. What Paul was saying here was that God has predestined that there is going to be a church; that there was going to be a body of Christ; that there was always going to be a group of believers. In other words, this does not affirm that God chose some individuals and reject others, but rather before the world was, before there was Jew or Gentile, God chose to have a people for himself.
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So when Paul said "us" he didn't really mean "us" as in "you guys in Ephesus" and "me, the apostle Paul?" Do you mean that there is some secret meaning to the pronoun "us" whenever it is used in the Epistles?
I believe that you are using a tactic NA Urshan used to preach from time to time. He would say, "The individual is not predestined, the church is!" I pretty much agreed with that for a time, until I really put some diligence into searching the matter out.
So, would you have me to believe that a "Personal God" has predestined an unknown and faceless entity and even God Himself will be surprised if you and I show up in heaven? Do you really think that we'll surprise Him?
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Originally Posted by TrmptPraise
Why did you stop at verse 12?
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Because the King James Bible is posted in its entirety on so many other Web sites, I thought that I would lighten the load on BOOMM's bandwidth. I think I'm a pretty swell guy for doing that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrmptPraise
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
If Paul was speaking to the individual in regards to predestination, why would there have to be trust? Why would there be a need to hear the word of truth or a response to believe? Did these individuals not have the choice to reject what they heard? Were they predestined to accept what was preached to them?
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uh... no offense, but are you ready for this right now? First you taunt me and then you come at me with this? Put the java on!
Do you as an individual "trust" God, at all?
Wouldn't the fact that you "trust" God defeat your own argument here? Or do you have to get inside of a predestined church house in order to pray?
In answer to your questions above, yes! Of course! Now what point could you possibly have been trying to make?
Also, why did
you stop at verse 13? Huh? Trying to hide verse 16 from your readers? Huh? Paul says, "[Paul] cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers." Who does he pray for? Does he pray for some nameless, faceless amorphous blob? When Tychicus wrote this letter was he really just some unknown immaterial entity? The individuals named in other epistles, were they also unknown to God?
Check out Jeremiah's experience:
Jeremiah 1:4-5. God had a plan for this young man's life before he was ever born! I would humbly submit that the same is true for you! (
Psalm 139:13-17).
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Originally Posted by TrmptPraise
If God has predestined us unto salvation or eternal damnation, why would Peter write, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”? ( 2 Pet 3:9) Why would God be longsuffering with the world if he had already predestined salvation unto chosen individuals? Why is he not willing that any should perish? |
I didn't think we were discussing Universalism here. But if you do support Universalism (the idea that all men will come unto repentence) then I suppose we could take it up elsewhere.
Also, why did God harden Pharoah's heart if it was really God's will for Pharoah to come unto repentence? (
Romans 9:17-18). It seems to me that we are dealing with a fundamental paradox here, but more about that as we go on.
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Originally Posted by TrmptPraise
Why would Peter preach that “the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off (availability of the promise to the Gentiles)?
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Because the promise had been made to "
you" (the people Peter was addressing directly)
Jeremiah 32:37-42;
to their children Ezekiel 37:25 and
Joel 2:28;
and to all that are afar off Isaiah 59:19.
But wait! Why did you stop there??? Peter went on to say: "even as many as
the Lord our God shall call." Do you see? Those that are saved by following
Acts 2:38 are saved because God has graciously called them to salvation. This choice to call men (and ladies, but you know what I mean) to salvation was motivated by the "good pleasure" of His own will before the foundation of the world. Pentecost happened in 30 A.D. (or whatever calendar you want) because God willed it to happed before "Day 1" of Genesis!
I submit that your own personal Pentecost happened because God saw you before you ever were born and said "That young fellow is going to be in My Kingdom!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrmptPraise
Romans 9:16 refers to when God is gracious, it is not because a human will (him that willeth), or a human work (him that runneth) lays him under obligation, and forces him to give, but the gift is of him, due to his mercy, which he has the right to bestow where he will. It is not a reference in any way to predestination.
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Sure, but why did you quote only one verse of
Romans 9? What about
Romans 9:8-15? Notice especially
Romans 9:11 - "before they were ever born..." The context
IS about predestination. You're a smart guy, don't make assertions simply because you didn't like something in my post. Make assertions that fit the Word of God. I'm not
that important. I really don't think God chose me from before I left my mother's womb just to get on your nerves. I'm holding out for a better calling than that.
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Originally Posted by TrmptPraise
As far as “once saved, always saved,” Peter also spoke of making your calling and election sure ( 2 Pet 1:10). The word he used was diligence. In fact, he said, “if you do these things (speaking of the fruits of the spirit), ye will not fall. Why would he reference a fall to those who already have obtained the faith (vs. 1) and escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (vs.4)? Is it possible that one could have a falling away from Christ? Absolutely. |
Remember that old story about the "Two Surprises in Heaven?" The first surprise is the folks that you thought would make it and who didn't. The second surprise is those who did make it but you never thought they would. Is God in for some of these same "surprises?"
(At this point I suppose Process Theology comes up... but why put every one to sleep?)
Now, regarding who's who, is an awful judgment to make. Fortunately it's not a judgment that we have to make or that we even are allowed to make. It is His selection.
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Originally Posted by TrmptPraise
Why would Paul be so concerned with the church of Galatia in saying, “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel?” If they had already received salvation through Paul’s ministry, surely “once saved, always saved” would cover them even if they were persuaded to false doctrine. If once saved, always saved was the rule, the letter to the Galations would never have been needed.
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And to add to that,
2 Peter 1:10. Why would Peter say that individual believers should make their "election sure" through "diligence..."
Determinism and free will are two sides of the same coin. The paradox that they represent has been the source of debate for longer than there's been a Christian church, and there's no sign yet that their various advocates will ever resolve the issue.
I prefer to accept the paradox. We can't resolve the apparent contradictions, and for whatever reason, the Word of God takes up both sides equally! That's why I refer to it as "a coin." Imagine a coin with "free will" emblazoned on one side and "determinsism" (predestination) on the other. You can't really see both sides of the coin at once. You must inspect one side, then flip it over to inspect the other side.
So its is with these two doctrines. You can't really preach "free will" completely without leaving out some aspects of determinism, and vice-versa.
To share the whole package of God's salvation we need to encourage one another more. I do not think God is pleased when His people are a flock of quivering sheep frightened all the time that the wolf is about to get them. We need more power today. One source of that power is our own confidence "He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" (
Philippians 1:6). He will perform! My ability to make it to that glorious day rests upon how well He performs! Do you have any idea how good that makes me feel? (Of course there's the "other side of the coin" too - I must be "diligent" - that is, "working" too). But the fact that I'm even in the race isn't because I'm so fast or I'm so strong; it's because it was
His good pleasure to make me a victor in Jesus Christ.
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Originally Posted by TrmptPraise
We could go on and on, unfortunately it is late here and I must be heading to bed. I will be glad to continue this discussion tomorrow should someone want to.
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Sleep well my friend. Have fun with your response, but don't laugh too loudly because with my schedule I'll probably be sleeping when you read this.
My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. 
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