John3 and Romans2: Part2

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Moving from the other thread to here to consolidate the discussion:



I think you have misinterpreted (or misapplied) this passage in Romans to unregenerate persons. Paul speaks of these gentiles as "showing the work of the law written in their hearts". The Bible identifies the writing of the law in the heart as a key element of the new covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-33 KJV
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:6-10 KJV
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The old covenant did not produce a people that bore the fruits of righteousness, reflecting God's moral character in their lives. The new covenant was established to remedy that problem, to produce obedience, to produce a people who did in fact reflect the character of our Father:

Romans 8:3-7 KJV
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So then when Paul speaks of the uncircumcised actually doing the things contained in the law, thus showing the "work of the law written in their hearts", these must of necessity be regenerated persons, people in the new covenant, who have experienced the writing of God's law in the heart by the Spirit of God, even though they are not physically circumcised.

So it seems the context of Paul's words is those who are in the new covenant, that the uncircumcised (gentile Christian) would be justified rather than the circumcised (Jewish non-christian), that the disobedient but circumcised Jew would fare worse than the obedient but uncircumcised Christian.

Nice

[Esaias]

Now, it seems to me the real intent of the thread is to address the attitude that some (many?) have towards other professing Christians who have not yet come more fully into the "truth". The question is raised about the repentant but unbaptised person, "should they be told they are still going to split hell wide open unless they get baptised in Jesus' name?"

I honestly cannot see the situation actually happening, as described. There are two types of repentant persons: the person who hears apostolic preaching, is convicted, and decides to side with Jesus and follow the Lord. Such persons will almost immediately be baptised, almost always that very day. Even if - as is the practice of some churches, sadly - they are told "to schedule a time next week to be baptised" they are not treated by the other believers as outsiders. At least not that I have ever seen or heard of.

On the other hand, the other type of repentant person, is the one who hears preaching by a non apostolic preacher, in a non apostolic context. Such a person will likely be told "ask Jesus into your heart and you will be born again". Such persons may be told to get baptised for the remission of sins (in a Cambellite, Lutheran, possibly Methodist, Christadelphian, Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic context) but almost certainly using the trinitarian formula of Rome and not the Bible formula of the name of Jesus Christ. So what of these?

Are these people repentant? Is the Gnostic repentant? The Mormon, the Jehovah's Witness? What about the Muslim convert, for that matter? They have amended their lives, they have "stopped the sinning" they were so used to, they have "turned over a new leaf". Does heaven rejoice over such persons and their change of life? Sure. God and heaven always rejoice whenever and wherever righteousness and goodness prevail over evil and wickedness. Are such persons Biblically "repentant"? That is, have they REPENTED in the Gospel sense?

I think in most cases, NO. Repentance implies more than just that the thief stop stealing or the adulterer stop adulterating or that the liar stop lying. It implies a turning FROM SIN (as such) and a turning in faith towards God through Jesus Christ. It implies hearing the Gospel and saying "yes".

Have such persons heard the Gospel? Not have they heard something about someone called "Jesus" but have they heard the Message ordained by God and delivered to the apostles and sent forth into the world? I don't doubt that many people have heard about Jesus, been drawn to him, and for whatever reason take a long time to come to the waters of genuine apostolic baptism, travelling through many winding and twisting roads of erroneous theology to wind up in the end at the Truth. His sheep hear His voice, through all the din and bluster of the world's religious nonsense. Eventually they come to Him.

ANYONE who professes belief in Jesus should be welcomed, and encouraged to continue with God into all the truth. Anyone who balks at the truth, at whatever step along the way, either doesn't understand what is being presented or is proving they are "not all of us". Not everyone claiming to belong to Jesus does in fact belong to Him. Time tells all, and we are sanctified by God's Truth, that is what sets us apart. So those who REJECT truth simply identify themselves with the world and its errors.

But anyone who shows up to an apostolic meeting, having previously been to the local Baptist evangelist's rally, and got convicted and decided to give their life to Jesus, will be GLAD to hear about Acts 2:38, they will be GLAD to hear about the Holy Ghost, they will be GLAD to be exposed to the Truth in all its facets, because if they DID repent, then they have a love for the truth and will follow the Spirit's leading into all truth.

Otherwise, they never had it to begin with.

So no, we don't need to tell someone "hey you repented but you haven't been baptised yet, see? So you're on your way to a devil's hell for real for real no cap." no, we should simply tell them "Ah, great, you have decided to follow Jesus! Well here is what He said, and what His apostles said, about how we are to follow him, so come along with us together to the City of the King!" If they refuse? Then they judge themselves unworthy of eternal life.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Paul wrote Romans to the Jewish and Gentile Christians at Rome. His purpose was to unite the Jewish and gentile Christians of Rome in the gospel.

Romans 2:4 - God's kindness leads us to repentance. Jew and Gentile alike.

Romans 2:15 - the gentile Christians have God's law written on their hearts by the infilling of the Spirit. Hebrews 8:10

Romans 2:29 - the gentile Christians have the spiritual circumcision of baptism. Col 2:11-12

The new covenant is for Jews and Gentiles alike.

AGREED, that is the intent of the Gospel, what was accomplished by the Cross. In Ro2.12-16 Paul gives an example of a time when a Gentile, one who is without the Word, is seen as righteous because of following the nudges of the conscience. Because they haven't ever heard the Word they have had no opportunity to be born again, no chance to join the body Christ where Jew and Gentile are made one. Though never experiencing the new birth Paul implies that, come judgment day, their conscience will declare them righteous and they will enter heaven even though they weren't born again. Will they receive the same rewards a born again person? I don't think so. But they won't be sent to hell when seen as righteous just because they weren't born again. That's my point. Let us Apostolics not be too quick to say someone is going to hell because they've never heard of born again. Should every one get a chance to hear and obey Ac2.38? Yes. But not all do and not all will go to hell according to Ro2.

[donfriesen1]

[QUOTE=Esaias;1615247] This is a reply to Esaias, from Part1. Quote from Esaias, "I think you have misinterpreted (or misapplied) this passage in Romans to unregenerate persons." THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT AND IS WHAT PAUL SAYS. Thank You. Paul speaks of those who do not know the law. They have to be unregenerate Gentiles BECAUSE they've never heard the Word. Therefore if applied to the unregenerate, if anyone does it is Paul. How can anyone think otherwise?

Paul contrasts 2 peoples in Ro2, Jews and Gentiles. The basic difference between them is one group has the Word of God, the other not. Paul attempts to show the Ro that the difference between these two people should be that the Word of God results in godly changes. v10,11 "but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God." God will treat Jew and Gentile alike by their actions not by their knowledge of the Word, because he does it without partiality by actions.

v12 "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law" If a person knows the Word they perish for sin. If a person doesn't know the Word they perish for sin. The important part isn't whether they had heard the Word or not but how they lived, as v13 says , it's not the hearers but doers who are justified. v14 talks about doing by nature. How do you understand doing by nature? Reasoning tells it has something to do with the conscience because it is later mentioned. A person's conscience can tell them to stay away from sin. In this case it is a Gentile, who hasn't ever heard the Word. Even though they've never heard the Word/Gospel, they live free from sin by listening to their conscience, because v14 "although not having the law, are a law to themselves". Though they don't have the Word their conscience has told them to live righteous (as if they had had the Word). Paul says in v15,16 that their conscience will bear witness on the day God judges by Jesus Christ. What will their conscience witness to, when they've listened to it to stay away from sin? (He writes all these words to Ro Christians and seems to include all NT people because he mentions the gospel) This tells me that there are some people in the times of the NT who haven't been given the chance to enter into Covenant by the New Birth because they haven't ever heard the Word which would given them the faith to obey the New Birth to enter the Covenant of Blood and Spirit. Will these people who obey their conscience be considered righteous? Paul seems to imply that they will be thought righteous because their conscience doesn't condemn them. Though they may be righteous they aren't born again because they've never had the chance to hear the Gospel. They are without either covenant or law and righteous.

Therefore, there will be some from NT times who are righteous, unbaptized and going to heaven.

[donfriesen1]

[QUOTE=Esaias;1615241]

2. Foreknowledge, as used by Scripture, specifically the apostle Paul, does not have regard to "God knowing in eternity past who specifically and individually would be saved and who not." Rather, it has regard to God's prior ordained destiny for Israel, that they would enter the new covenant:

Romans 8:28-30 KJV
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Here, those who are foreknown, are predestinated to be saved Christians. Who then are those whom God foreknew?

It is Israel which was foreknown of God. It is therefore Israel which is predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ. These are they whom are said to be not only predestinated but called and glorified.

God's foreknowledge (in this context), and the doctrine of predestination, has to do with the NATIONAL STATUS and POSITION of the descendants of Jacob,
Predestination and foreknowledge are not about individual personal destinies, but the corporate destiny of Israel.

Because a blade of grass exists it does so by the will of God. The tree which became the Cross also existed by the will of God. No one would argue that one has much greater relevance than the other but the same will of God brings both equally. For God to foreknow the existence of any individual isn't any harder for him to do than to foreknow the existence of Israel. His omniscience makes each of equal effort. In the same way that the foreknowledge of God pre-determines the destiny of Israel it also pre-determines the individual. God's infinite resources show one as equally achievable as the other. Easy-peasy. I see no reason to discriminate between the lesser and the greater when it comes to the foreknowledge/pre-determinization. I'd be interested to hear any thoughts why this should be thought necessary, but perhaps on another thread?

[donfriesen1]

[QUOTE=Esaias;1615247]Now, it seems to me the real intent of the thread is to address the attitude that some (many?) have towards other professing Christians who have not yet come more fully into the "truth". The question is raised about the repentant but unbaptised person, "should they be told they are still going to split hell wide open unless they get baptised in Jesus' name?"

Yes, you've got it right. Its about attitude. But there may be more to this. Plz allow me to think out loud as I write. I say that because the thoughts are underdeveloped; I haven't put enough time into it to come to any firm conclusions.

First, let it be said that I believe in Jn 3.5 and Ac2.38 as necessary for those wanting 100%. Is there a place in God's world where he can accept those who give 95%? Or said another way, is it 100% with God or you go to hell? Very few of us will admit to giving 100% and do we condemn ourselves by admitting it. Admittedly, this argument confuses 2 different topics; obedience to the salvation message and the obedience to total committment. They are separate things.

Second, NT salvation is about Covenant. Is there a place in God's world where relationships exist without covenant? The time from Adam to Sinai was a time without law and isn't some law a necessary component of any covenant? Of that 2500 year period we know of no general law nor general covenant requirement. (Noah had covenant, but perhaps only a personal not on a group level as shown with Israel and the Church. Abraham also had covenant.) Of the many people in this time who are righteous, Enoch being one, can it be said to be without covenant? God is in some sort of relationship with everyone he has created but many without covenant. If it can be said of these, then what is to prevent any from saying that a person today can not be viewed righteous outside of covenant. Saying it another way: should we be eager to condemn anyone who hasn't entered covenant while still making efforts to share the full gospel with these? Having a less condemning attitude absolves no Apostolic of the responsibility of sharing the whole Word of God.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Also, there is an underlying a priori presumption here, that "salvation involves going to heaven and damnation involves going to hell". What is being presumed is that the soul is inherently immortal, that the divinely desired destiny of man is heaven, that the divinely ordained punishment for sin is eternity in hell, and that the purpose of God in giving mankind the Gospel is to rescue all souls from hell and deposit them in heaven.

But ALL of that is presumed, and I would suggest is in fact not taught by the Scripture. As a result, the doctrinal positions that are based on such presumptions are in error to one degree or another, and need to be re-examined. I would submit to you that the Bible actually teaches that humans are NOT immortal, that immortality is strictly limited as a gift to the believers, that the destiny of the "saved" is not heaven but the earth.

And I sense another presupposition. It is hard to put into words, because nobody who has it ever actually states it. But it is very near the idea that somehow God OWES salvation to people. "If God sends someone to hell because they weren't (fill in the blank) then how can He be just? Especially if they never heard of (whatever fill the blank)?" Nobody says God owes anybody anything yet they actually seem to think He does, for they feel He would be UNJUST in "denying heaven" to certain persons who failed to meet certain requirements. But is it not true that EVERYONE IS ALREADY under sentence of death to begin with? That to withhold a PARDON to the convicted criminal is no injustice whatsoever? Are criminals OWED a pardon? OF course not. So there would be no injustice whatsoever in God withholding eternal life from anyone at any time under any circumstances EXCEPT in violation of His own stated conditions by which He has bound Himself.

Please contemplate that last bolded statement carefully, it will greatly inform the reader how best to approach the subject.

Genesis 6:3 (NKJV) And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he [is] indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”


From that verse, I can see that God strives with men, and with each person. For what? To turn them to not do evil, and presumably, to turn to Him.
As result, I believe every one has in their life time, a direct calling from the Spirit to seek God at some point. If that person responds, God then reveals Himself in one way or another.

I sought God on my own, and he revealed Himself to me on his own as the God of the Bible. No preacher involved until I joined a Pentecostal church later after I read the Bible and experienced the presence of God at home during a repentance prayer.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

AGREED, that is the intent of the Gospel, what was accomplished by the Cross. In Ro2.12-16 Paul gives an example of a time when a Gentile, one who is without the Word, is seen as righteous because of following the nudges of the conscience. Because they haven't ever heard the Word they have had no opportunity to be born again, no chance to join the body Christ where Jew and Gentile are made one. Though never experiencing the new birth Paul implies that, come judgment day, their conscience will declare them righteous and they will enter heaven even though they weren't born again. Will they receive the same rewards a born again person? I don't think so. But they won't be sent to hell when seen as righteous just because they weren't born again. That's my point. Let us Apostolics not be too quick to say someone is going to hell because they've never heard of born again. Should every one get a chance to hear and obey Ac2.38? Yes. But not all do and not all will go to hell according to Ro2.

Are you teaching that some can be saved by works without faith?
Even though the Bible says that without faith it impossible to come to God?

Hebrews 11:6
King James Version
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

[Amanah]

Romans 2 is teaching the Jewish believers in Roman that Gentile believers are saved because:

*when they receive the Spirit the law is written on their hearts,
*and when they are baptized, their hearts are spiritually circumcised

1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God

[Amanah]

God wrote the Ten Commandments with His own finger on two tablets of stone (Exodus 31:18; Exodus 32:15-16).

However, Paul points out, under the New Covenant, God has given us His Spirit, enabling us to keep His laws in their spiritual intent. He is now writing His Ten Commandments on our hearts (Hebrews 8:10)!