The Reason Some Apostolics Are Concerned: The Results of Erased Lines

[SDG]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

I do not teach "basic Oneness Hall/Bernard" theology at Church Alive. I have never believed it and have never taught it. I do teach that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the Flesh. I teach that God, who is an omnipresent Spirit and has not flesh, bones and blood, took on human flesh and blood and gave himself as a sacrifice for the sin of mankind and that we can only be saved or redeemed from sin if we repent of our sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ who is the Flesh/Son of God. I have always taught that there is only One God and His revealed name in the earth is the Lord Jesus Christ. I have always taught that God was IN Christ - reconciling the world unto Himself. I believe that we enter into Covenant with God in the waters of Baptism when we take on the Name of Jesus Christ. I believe that the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a free gift from our Father and that we will speak in a supernatural language and manifest the fruit of the Spirit when we are filled to overflowing with God's Power. We will then be witnesses of the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

These are things that I teach but I do not take a message to preach this to the attenders of Church Alive. I teach this to Leadership. We deal with things like this in classes. When I preach or teach a message to the entire assembly - I construct those messages - to MINISTER to the people. Over half of our attendees are also in Leadership Classes.

I did not say I "believed in another teaching of Oneness other than Bernard's". I do not believe that one, two or three men or a committee can define God for an entire movement and then if you do not agree with their theology - you don't "believe the TRUTH". What they teach is Oneness Pentecostal Denominational Theology and I do not believe one can put God in a box and define him and confine him to one's own sectarian and elitist views.

God is bigger and Greater than all of us!

Glorrrrrrrrrrrrrry!!! * Dan shockamoos in the presence of his enemies*

[ILG]

Originally Posted by bishoph

It is very interesting to me that every thread that addresses doctrinal absolutes or the erosion of them, is swiftly swept into a "standards" debate. As Steadfast has stated, there are variations to separation taught in each church whether liberal or conservative. (and yes both libs and cons teach some level of separation)

The issue here has little to do with standards, but has everything to do with doctrine. The doctrine of the trinity is a false doctrine! Since this false doctrine is the foundation of their belief it leaves all subsequent doctrines in question i.e. baptism, eternal security, etc. The PAW is facing a critical doctrinal erosion.

The only parallel to the UPCI's passing of res 4 IMHO is that the men who passed res 4 kept bringing it back until it passed, and the men who brought this res to the PAW will keep bringing it back until it passes as well.

The point is that the PAW first let down on standards and now the UPC is allowing advertising on television. HOw many times have you heard....first the standards then the doctrine.....that is the *basis* for this argument. Call it doctrinal if you wish......the UPC has changed NONE of it's doctrines.

[HangingOut]

Wouldn't you have to admit that the history of the movement cultivated control? I mean when you are up against 99% of the Christian movement as your advesary it sort of drives some degree of a need to control. I am simply saying that the cart came before individual personalities with control issues came on board.

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

The reason some are concerned is they are Control Freaks.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Ferd
Pianoman, we arent talking about community events. we are talking about the fact that the PAW fell 3 votes shy of allowing Trinitarians to speak at their conferences. (which in fact, they DID last year).

We are talking about an organization founded on solid Apostolic Doctrine that has eroded to the point where fully half their ministers dont see a dimes worth of difference between the local COGIC guy and themselves.

THAT is what we are talking about.

People are saying this isn't about standards......but how else is the PAW "guilty" besides letting up on standards??? What other comparision is being made?? HOw can the UPC avoid the destiny of thye PAW???

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

I do not teach "basic Oneness Hall/Bernard" theology at Church Alive. I have never believed it and have never taught it. I do teach that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the Flesh. I teach that God, who is an omnipresent Spirit and has not flesh, bones and blood, took on human flesh and blood and gave himself as a sacrifice for the sin of mankind and that we can only be saved or redeemed from sin if we repent of our sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ who is the Flesh/Son of God. I have always taught that there is only One God and His revealed name in the earth is the Lord Jesus Christ. I have always taught that God was IN Christ - reconciling the world unto Himself. I believe that we enter into Covenant with God in the waters of Baptism when we take on the Name of Jesus Christ. I believe that the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a free gift from our Father and that we will speak in a supernatural language and manifest the fruit of the Spirit when we are filled to overflowing with God's Power. We will then be witnesses of the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

These are things that I teach but I do not take a message to preach this to the attenders of Church Alive. I teach this to Leadership. We deal with things like this in classes. When I preach or teach a message to the entire assembly - I construct those messages - to MINISTER to the people. Over half of our attendees are also in Leadership Classes.

I did not say I "believed in another teaching of Oneness other than Bernard's". I do not believe that one, two or three men or a committee can define God for an entire movement and then if you do not agree with their theology - you don't "believe the TRUTH". What they teach is Oneness Pentecostal Denominational Theology and I do not believe one can put God in a box and define him and confine him to one's own sectarian and elitist views.

God is bigger and Greater than all of us!

POST OF THE DAY!!!

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Steadfast
My reasoning is fairly simple. Let me clarify for you... when you see things like the PAW's recent vote that almost kicked the doors open to say, "False doctrine doesn't matter" you start seeing why other Apostolics (not just UPC either) are quick to get nervous about people who want to erase the lines of Apostolic distinctives - whether they be Resolution 4 or anything else.

There is a faction of the Apostolic movement that are concerned about the 'direction' our movement will go if we keep saying, "Well, this doesn't matter anymore and that doesn't matter anymore".

See? It's about standards.

[ThePastorsCoach]

Originally Posted by pentecostisalive

Ephesians 4:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

The purpose of the 5 fold ministry is for the perfecting (maturing - furnishing) or the saints, and to develop them for the work of the ministry.

Verse 13 - How Long? Until everyone comes into the unity of the Faith (Doctrine), and the knowledge of God.

Verse 14 - The result of this is that they will not be tossed about by every wind of doctrine.

The ultimate result of the perfecting and development for ministry to have people grow out of the child state into having a solid understanding of doctrine. If you never preach or teach doctrine, you are failing in your responsibility to your people.

No wonder people don't know what they believe. No wonder the trinity preachers are being accepted into their pulpits and will eventually be adopted by their people.

I pray that God will always give the church the real 5-fold ministry that would establish the church in Bible Doctrine.

We might as well throw out the following scripture:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The false preachers of today..... I just preach ministry but no doctrine. We just preach acceptable, societal issues that will be pleasing the ears of my itching ears congregation. One God... My people can't handle that. Absolutes.... What are they?

Guess what? You are failing in your responsibility to God and to your people. The scriptures are given for the reasons detailed in this verse. If you don't preach the Absolute Doctrines found in the Bible, please stop calling yourself Apostolic, because the Apostles preached the doctrine revealing in the Old Testament, and fulfilled in Christ.

I am not targeting specifically the author of the post that I have quoted, but am speaking generally of the spirit of this age that is sweeping up many preachers in our day.

Thank you for your elitist and condescending post to me. I am so thankful I have people like you to remind me of why I left your critical bunch.
Don't stick you nose in my business when you have NO CLUE what I teach and preach and your not my judge.
Who are YOU to tell me that I am failing in my responsibility and that you can decide who is APOSTOLIC and who is not?

I so appreciate you posting scripture on here as I have been preaching for 35 years and have baptized thousands of people in 57 nations. It is so refreshing to see that SOMEONE ELSE believes the HOLY BIBLE!

[Whole Hearted]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

[/COLOR]



This, ladies and gentlemen, is a picture perfect example of how to say "I don't believe the Apostle's Doctrine" without saying the exact words.

By the way, this IS an Apostolic forum.

Sometime make that most of the time I wonder. It certainly doesn't appear to be lately.

[ILG]

E]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

ILG, I'm not sure why there are some who believe that once standards go, the doctrine goes (and I'm not sure that's what Steadfast is saying here, but I'm just chiming in on this thought).

This is how I see the problem......people who let go of doctrine after letting go of standards are people who never had the doctrine in the first place. These are people who lived for God through standards, not doctrine, therefore, when standards went, so did the doctrine.

I really don't agree with this HO. I was "solid" on the doctrine. I have let go of both but only sort of. I just see it differently now. But in many minds here different= evil

I'm a person who is in constant struggle because I was raised believing that standards were the doctrine. As an adult, I feel that nothing I do is good enough for God because I don't live the standards that I was taught all my life.

I was never taught to have a relationship with Jesus, but I was taught that looking the part meant one was a shoo-in to heaven. It's hard to abandon those teachings, even when one no longer believes it.

I have friends who have dropped standards but continue in the church. Even though I don't follow standards either, I cannot help but look at those people and feel something heavy in my heart as if they are backslidden and hellbound.

I wish that feeling would go away. I believe if I were able to stop focusing on the outside of people, my own life with Jesus would greatly improve. But here I am, at 38 yrs of age, judging people by what they look like on the outside as I was taught to do all my childhood years.

And when I look in the mirror, I'm even more disappointed in what I see.

[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry you struggle this way, HO. Probably because my family accepts me for who I am....I don't have an issue with this.

[Whole Hearted]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Steadfast, how long will folks who are pushing trinitarianism be allowed to post on AFF?

I am wondering the same thing. When will something be done?