Homosexuality Or Legalism--Which Is Worse?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I generally agree. However:

1) If a person has had a negative experience with a "legalist" AND...

2) Not much experience around "gays" or a single positive experience with, say a "gay" coworker or such...

... then that person may tend to weight their judgments a little heavily to one side.

People who have met individuals from motorcycle clubs have thought them quite charming, but wouldn't venture to ride with them. Some people have had bad experiences with motorcycle clubs and would still hang out with them. This all goes back to what I was saying about the Jonestown Death Tape (FBI No. Q 042), that there were people who had bad experiences with Jim Jones and continued with him and others who also had the same bad experiences with Jim Jones and left him and never returned.

I said all that to say this, people formulate their own opinions and believe what they want to believe for hundreds of different reasons. We see this in everyday life. We cannot compare sexual deviants with an Apostolic minister with just a broad brush statement.

Now when we shift this discussion to autocratic leadership that is extremly abusive than we can speak about sociopathic, or narsistic behaviors, which sexual deviants do fall under.

I must stress that Apostolic Holiness preachers who have wonderful beautiful moves of God and the people in the church love the minister and the minister loves the people. No matter what someone may say about the way that certain church believes, no one can discount the love of God in the services. From the outsider looking in it may look odd or cultish, but if anyone was to spend time with the people in prayer and worship and feel the power of God move they may walk away with another view.

The homosexual community is not that way and you will feel a spirit and that spirit will move but you sure don’t want it moving on you.

Can you compare the two? Just because a man preaches against television or short sleeves does that put him on the same level as a deviant? The question is ridiculous.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Originally Posted by pelathais

In defence of Timmy, not that he asked for nor even needs my help...

His version is not all that "skewed." It may be, and I hope that this is the case, that what he describes is different from your experience. His précis does describe what a very large number of people have also described as their experiences.

Given the fact that we are failing to retain our young people and even most of our converts I think it's healthy for us to re-evaluate the way we do things. In other words, are we coming up short of God's expectations in some way?

Rather than looking at the "legalist" as the one who has "gone the extra mile," I think Timmy is suggesting that the "legalist" has simply "gone the wrong way."

Pelathais,

Are you saying that the reason we are not keeping our new converts and our young people is the fault of our positions on being a separated and readily identifiable, spiritually speaking, people? Must we compromise our uniqueness to retain what the power of the blood is supposed to keep? I honestly think the reason we are struggling, like most other groups, is the cultural propensity for post modern thought and moral relativism. I have found that the genuinely hungry stick. Those who are following emotion or a specific urgent need outside of salvation seldom hang around. I have not had any that have said oh it was the legalism that drove me away. Have you heard that?

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Quite the contrary there Napoleon. I won't bog you down with the hundreds of anecdotes that I could, but remember the "half shekel" teaching (just as one example)? That taught that you could actually buy salvation and healings for your body. It was so prevalent at one time that a respected theologian from our ranks was commissioned to write an article condemning the practice in the Forward magazine.

I referenced that article in a meeting where I was speaking once and a group in the audience actually disrupted the service by trying to shout me down over the issue. One voice there was a district official.

Well, I am speaking of real Apostolics, not those that would accept such a false teaching.

The truth is that no legitimate Apostolic would say one was saved by works. His doing so would disqualify him from being an Apostolic.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Quite the contrary there Napoleon. I won't bog you down with the hundreds of anecdotes that I could, but remember the "half shekel" teaching (just as one example)? That taught that you could actually buy salvation and healings for your body. It was so prevalent at one time that a respected theologian from our ranks was commissioned to write an article condemning the practice in the Forward magazine.

I referenced that article in a meeting where I was speaking once and a group in the audience actually disrupted the service by trying to shout me down over the issue. One voice there was a district official.

and just because one is a DS does not mean they are Apostolic. It just means they are political.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Timmy

But legalism is not simply trying too hard to obey God.

That's where you don't understand those who kept the law in the scriptures.
These individuals were devout and loved God and therefore it was not problem for them to obey. Jesus said how could you love me and do not what I say. It's easy to do the hardest job in the world when you love someone.

If you love your wife nothing she asks could ever get you upset. You're in love. I don't watch television because I understand that there is noting on it I would want to see. Since the television is full of misinformation and low-level entertainment why would a child of God want to view it? Remember it's all about viewing, not just owning.

Originally Posted by Timmy

Theologically, it is believing that following the law is how one is saved.

No, following the Law only leads someone to The Lawgiver, and never made anyone perfect or mature. The love of the Father draws us near and the by-product of my love for Him and His love for me is that I will separate myself from those things that are in this world. I won't want to talk like the world or walk like the world.

Originally Posted by Timmy

Paul shoots it down nicely in Galatians 3. Legalism masquerades as righteousness and salvation, while cursing (says Paul) those who fall for it. Insidious.

Paul is talking about circumcision that was making saved Gentiles into physical Jews. In other words those Judaizers in the first century was adding circumcision into the equation because they wanted the Gentile dogs to become Jewish human beings, and therefore completing the job of salvation.
That was not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When people mix holiness with the law to circumcise new Gentile converts into Judaism they are missing the point of what Paul taught.

Originally Posted by Timmy

Of course, nobody here says that's how you're saved.

Then we have no argument.

Originally Posted by Timmy

It's by repenting, being baptized in water in Jesus' name (making sure your baptizer doesn't use the dreaded "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" wording, or it won't "take"), being filled with the Holy Ghost. speaking in tongues, and by following all the rules for the rest of your life. Only they may not tell you that last part right away. That comes later. And exactly which rules to follow is subject to much debate, of course.

Timmy what is truly amazing is that people think outward standards is the big bone crusher. Listen there are people who are in churches that have no standards who can't stop messing with pornography, lying, cheating, anger, hate, theft, and all other sorts of vice. Tim, it's not about the outward, you got to have a clean heart, and get some prayer, and worship on your face in a puddle of snot and tears. If we still want to look like 50 Cent, or David Allan Coe then what can you do.

I fell in love and when I fell in love I studied and prayed and fasted and worshiped my wife did the same and we both feel the same way about holiness.


In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[stmatthew]

I would say that I probably have never met a legalist. I was around the AMF, and have considered myself conservative on most issues. I have seen men that seemed over dogmatic on some issues. But I have never met one of those men that believed you were saved by works. Again, to define, they taught that after salvation you were created to good works, and if your works were evil, then..........

[Sherri]

This is the strangest thread......

Originally Posted by Sherri

This is the strangest thread......

Kind of queer isn't it?

Oh so shoot me!

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by philjones

Kind of queer isn't it?

Oh so shoot me!

and here I thought we were having a gay old time.

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by philjones

Kind of queer isn't it?

Oh so shoot me!