Reading Fudge's Book Again

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad

Can we go a different way? Can anyone come forward and say that their family was not Catholic or some other religion 100 years ago? 200 years ago? etc...

I didn't quite answer you and maybe steered away from your point. What you're asking is: can anyone show an unbroken line of Pentecostal pedigree that is older than, say about 1901? Where was the "Jesus Name Church" in 1890? 1865? etc?

Yes, rather than start at Christ and work forward, I was proposing that we start from now and work our way backwards (hopefully beyond 1901) the same way you would trace ancestry or geneology. I know my family was Catholic until the 1940's... so that rules us out...

[Barb]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I didn't quite answer you and maybe steered away from your point. What you're asking is: can anyone show an unbroken line of Pentecostal pedigree that is older than, say about 1901? Where was the "Jesus Name Church" in 1890? 1865? etc?

Is this accurate?!

1850. Dan Huntington, Boston, Mass. baptized converts according to Acts 2:38 (V. Synan, p. 163).

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Barb

Is this accurate?!

1850. Dan Huntington, Boston, Mass. baptized converts according to Acts 2:38 (V. Synan, p. 163).

Synan is a credible source and I've seen that reference to D. Huntington in Boston before. But we must ask further, did the good Dan Huntington preach the full Oneness Apostolic message?

As stated in another post, the Old Celtic Church practiced baptism in Jesus name but they were also very Trinitarian in their views of the Godhead. Jesus name baptism is so plainly practiced in the book of Acts that many diverse groups picked up on it.

I personally baptized a CofC preacher and several of his people about 10 or 11 years ago. They then went back and rebaptized their entire congregation and Jesus name baptism spread to several other CofC churches through that. However for the most part they kept their Trinitarian creed and Preterist eschatology.

Sorting out all of these groups and teachings is very complex work. Just because someone baptized in Jesus name 200 years ago (or whenever) doesn't make them a candidate to preach GC this year. There;s a lot of baggage that we pick up when we try and attach ourselves to many of these historical groups and movements.

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Synan is a credible source and I've seen that reference to D. Huntington in Boston before. But we must ask further, did the good Dan Huntington preach the full Oneness Apostolic message?

As stated in another post, the Old Celtic Church practiced baptism in Jesus name but they were also very Trinitarian in their views of the Godhead. Jesus name baptism is so plainly practiced in the book of Acts that many diverse groups picked up on it.

I personally baptized a CofC preacher and several of his people about 10 or 11 years ago. They then went back and rebaptized their entire congregation and Jesus name baptism spread to several other CofC churches through that. However for the most part they kept their Trinitarian creed and Preterist eschatology.

Sorting out all of these groups and teachings is very complex work. Just because someone baptized in Jesus name 200 years ago (or whenever) doesn't make them a candidate to preach GC this year. There;s a lot of baggage that we pick up when we try and attach ourselves to many of these historical groups and movements.

Are you saying that those groups had to have a full understanding of the God head to make their Jesus name baptism valid?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Are you saying that those groups had to have a full understanding of the God head to make their Jesus name baptism valid?

No. Just that we would be wrong to say things like, "the Irish Celtic Church was a Oneness Apostolic church... " simply because we shared baptism in Jesus name in common with them.

As far as the validity of their baptism, that would depend upon the validity of the faith expressed by each individual. Considering that I need God's help just to judge my own heart (Psalm 129:23-24), I don't want to ever set myself up as a judge of those who've been dead a 1,000 years.

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by pelathais

How about this...

When I signed on to the UPC one thing that influenced me was that among the Required Reading was a Bible Study by John Dearing where he used Romans 4:17 to show that his Trinitarian grandmother was not lost. Because of this I felt that the UPC's stand was that Trinitarians were not automatically "lost."

With the change in the Required Reading and the way the AS was put through, over time I began to see that the UPC had changed it's position. We now were saying that John Dearing's grandmother is lost. A founder of our movement (of course from the PCI side *shudder*) had some consolation in the fate of his loved ones. We take that consolation away with our revisionism.

That poor old lady; died before the revelation of Jesus name baptism and the Mighty God in Christ. We used to cut her some slack. No we send her to hell.

Thank God that we can't actually send anyone to hell as anxious as some appear to be in doing so. God is the one who will determine who is saved, not us.

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad

Yes, rather than start at Christ and work forward, I was proposing that we start from now and work our way backwards (hopefully beyond 1901) the same way you would trace ancestry or geneology. I know my family was Catholic until the 1940's... so that rules us out...

My dad was Church of God until 1958, so that rules me out as well.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Synan is a credible source and I've seen that reference to D. Huntington in Boston before. But we must ask further, did the good Dan Huntington preach the full Oneness Apostolic message?

As stated in another post, the Old Celtic Church practiced baptism in Jesus name but they were also very Trinitarian in their views of the Godhead. Jesus name baptism is so plainly practiced in the book of Acts that many diverse groups picked up on it.

I personally baptized a CofC preacher and several of his people about 10 or 11 years ago. They then went back and rebaptized their entire congregation and Jesus name baptism spread to several other CofC churches through that. However for the most part they kept their Trinitarian creed and Preterist eschatology.

Sorting out all of these groups and teachings is very complex work. Just because someone baptized in Jesus name 200 years ago (or whenever) doesn't make them a candidate to preach GC this year. There;s a lot of baggage that we pick up when we try and attach ourselves to many of these historical groups and movements.

See it matters not how much anyone posts or any source your mind is made up. I know of churches in the hills of Kentucky that were speaking in tongues and baptizing in Jesus Name decades before the 1900's. Some of the Cain Ridge folks baptized in Jesus Name and spoke in tongues.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

See it matters not how much anyone posts or any source your mind is made up. I know of churches in the hills of Kentucky that were speaking in tongues and baptizing in Jesus Name decades before the 1900's. Some of the Cain Ridge folks baptized in Jesus Name and spoke in tongues.

I think we're really on the same page here but maybe I'm not articulating very well. I'm not familiar with those groups you described but I do have family in Kentucky and have thought of you fondly for that reason.

I'm certain that there were groups that no one has ever heard from who existed, preached an Acts 2:38 Gospel and then disappeared from the pages of time, remembered perhaps only by God. But I obviously can't prove they existed, so I just have to look at history like I'm looking at the night sky and allow a sense of awe and wonder fill my heart.

What I am speaking up against is the way that we have grouped every "anti-Trinity" movement mentioned in history into the the Apostolic fellowship. This leads to all kinds of confusion- people end up thinking that we're Gnostics, dualists and Arians.