Random Questions Thread

[Amanah]

Shag replied:
"Perhaps Paul had a circumcised heart before conversion, and Cornelius did in Acts 10, and that’s what led them to the new birth"

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To be in a new covenant relationship with God:

Cornelius needed to obey the gospel and have a new identity in Christ through Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection to be in a new covenant relationship as a gentile.

Paul needed a transformation to be led by the Spirit to stop killing Christians, through obedience to the gospel, and to be included in the new covenant.

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1 John 2:22 - "Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son."

1 John 4:3 - "and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of antichrist."

2 John 1:7 - "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceitful one and the antichrist."

The term "antichrist" refers to anyone or anything that:

* Denies Jesus Christ's divinity and humanity.
* Rejects Jesus as the Messiah.
* Opposes Christ's teachings.

[shag]

Originally Posted by shag

Acts 7:51..“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.


Deut. 10: 16..Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Jer. 4:4
4..Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem:


Deut. 30:6
6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.



These heart circumcisions sure seemed to preceded the new birth experience of Acts 2.




Perhaps Paul had a circumcised heart before conversion, and Cornelius did in Acts 10, and that’s what led them to the new birth.

Respectfully, I don’t think you’re picking up what I’m attempting to throw down. We seem to be on two different radio stations.

I’m not arguing against the new birth, or against the new covenant.(I don’t think circumcised heart, and a new heart are exactly the same thing)
I am saying that heart circumcision seem to Preceded the new birth, according to the scriptures above that I posted.
I think perhaps heart circumcision is not what you think it is.
I think it may be more simply, having a right heart towards God, loving him with all one’s heart, mind, soul, and strength. Ananias had that, and that’s what got him to the new birth. Paul had that, even in light of persecuting the church, he did it while misunderstanding, but his heart was right toward God, circumcised, that’s what lead him to the gospel.

God always was and always is, looking for people that have a circumcised heart toward him, and then they could be born again.

Else how do you explain the above scriptures I posted, from acts seven, and Deuteronomy, and Jeremiah, if heart circumcision was not possible because it was “1500 years” before the acts 2 new birth?

[Amanah]

Okay Shag. Maybe we are at an impasse as I have nothing to add, but thank you for the discussion.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Respectfully, I don’t think you’re picking up what I’m attempting to throw down. We seem to be on two different radio stations.

I’m not arguing against the new birth, or against the new covenant.(I don’t think circumcised heart, and a new heart are exactly the same thing)
I am saying that heart circumcision seem to Preceded the new birth, according to the scriptures above that I posted.
I think perhaps heart circumcision is not what you think it is.
I think it may be more simply, having a right heart towards God, loving him with all one’s heart, mind, soul, and strength. Ananias had that, and that’s what got him to the new birth. Paul had that, even in light of persecuting the church, he did it while misunderstanding, but his heart was right toward God, circumcised, that’s what lead him to the gospel.

God always was and always is, looking for people that have a circumcised heart toward him, and then they could be born again.

Else how do you explain the above scriptures I posted, from acts seven, and Deuteronomy, and Jeremiah, if heart circumcision was not possible because it was “1500 years” before the acts 2 new birth?

Circumcision of the heart is a metaphor meaning a heart made tender towards God, ie a heart that loves God and seeks to obey Him. It is usually used in relation to obedience.

In regards to the new birth, heart circumcision is used to distinguish between those who are disobedient and unregenerate (whether Jew or Gentile) and those who are faithful and obedient (ie Christians, the regenerated). Those who are Christians are of course "circumcised in heart", as the metaphor is being used to provide a general classification of people into two groups - those who love God and are in covenant and those who do not.

An effect of conversion is heart circumcision, because heart circumcision is a metaphor for the change of heart from one of disobedience to one of obedience and faith.

Old Testament Israel was commanded by God to "circumcise your heart" because they had been disobedient and were acting like heathens and needed to get right with God. One of the works of the Holy Spirit in the new covenant era is to "circumcise the hearts" of people to love God and put their faith in Christ.

I think trying to split regeneration or conversion into distinct "phases" or "parts" with clear black and white lines between each part is not really Biblical. I don't see the Bible writers doing that. What I do see is they use metaphors to describe the change from whatever a person was to what God wants them to be, and that this is ascribed both to their own doing as well as to the work of the Spirit in their life.

[Amanah]

Thank you Esaias I was unsure.

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Israel struggled to achieve heart circumcision, repeatedly broke God's commands, and resisted His guidance:

Deuteronomy 9:6-7: Israel's stubbornness.
Jeremiah 9:25-26: Uncircumcised hearts.
Ezekiel 36:26-27: Promise of future heart transformation.
Hebrews 8:8-10: New Covenant necessity.

Resulting in exile, captivity, and loss of covenant blessings.

Making the new covenant a necessity:

Spiritual circumcision (Romans 2:28-29).
New Covenant (Hebrews 8-10).
Baptism (Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:11-12)

[Amanah]

A concise summary of biblical theology:

*One God*

1. Monotheism (Deuteronomy 6:4-5)
2. Creator of heaven and earth (Genesis 1:1)
3. Sovereign over history (Isaiah 46:9-10)

*One People (Israel)*

1. Chosen by God (Genesis 12:1-3)
2. Covenant community (Exodus 19:5-6)
3. Witnesses to God's glory (Isaiah 43:10)

*One Outcome (New Creation)*

1. Redemption and restoration (Romans 8:18-25)
2. New heaven and new earth (Revelation 21:1-4)
3. Unity in Christ (Ephesians 2:11-22)

*Biblical Themes*

1. Election and covenant
2. Redemption and salvation
3. Creation and new creation
4. Unity and reconciliation

*Key Verses*

1. Genesis 12:3 - Blessing to all nations
2. Isaiah 49:6 - Light to the nations
3. Ephesians 2:14-16 - Unity in Christ
4. Revelation 21:3 - God dwells with humanity

This framework underscores God's singular purpose and plan for humanity, emphasizing Israel's role and the ultimate new creation reality.

Thoughts borrowed from NT Wright's book:
The New Testament in It's World

[shag]

Regarding Rom. 2:28-29


Rom. 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.

29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.




Can a person be a Jew without the circumcision of the heart?

I would say according to this passage, it says, no they cannot. (No matter a persons opinion of what a Jew even is, it says what it says).


That is agreeable with a simple, yes, correct?



(it does not say spiritual Jew, it just says Jew, in every version, so that can be irrelevant)

[Amanah]

Switching the thought pattern away from confusing definitions.

True circumcision (Romans 2:25-29) is tied "to the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16)

Galatians 6:15-16
15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

True circumcision isn't about physical circumcision, but heart circumcision. The Israel of God encompasses believers from all backgrounds. New creation in Christ supersedes ethnic identity.

* Unity among believers(Galatians 3:28).
* Justification by faith (Romans 3:24-25).
* New covenant relationship with God (Hebrews 8:10-12, Act 2).

[shag]

Thank you Amanah.
I will read back through, and ponder the posts & scriptures.
Im curious if u attend upc?
You don’t have to answer that… I only ask because I do,(25 years +)and there seems to be quite a bit that I don’t agree with, basically regarding dispensational teaching….to which I have 5 kids “learning” what of it is taught.
“Eat the fish and spit out the bones”….pretty bony fish sometimes…

(I realize of course, disp teaching is WAY beyond the upc)

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by shag

Thank you Amanah.
I will read back through, and ponder the posts & scriptures.
Im curious if u attend upc?
You don’t have to answer that… I only ask because I do,(25 years +)and there seems to be quite a bit that I don’t agree with, basically regarding dispensational teaching….to which I have 4 kids “learning” what of it is taught.
“Eat the fish and spit out the bones”….pretty bony fish sometimes…

(I realize of course, disp teaching is well beyond the upc)

Shag, I was a member of an independent oneness church for many years, then part of the UPCI for 10+ years. I left the UPCI to be with the CACI because of doctrinal differences. And now I'm finding things with the CACI that don't align with Scripture.

You are in a Oneness Pentecostal Church where your kids are being taught Acts 2:38 salvation. Holy Ghost infilling with tongues as initial evidence. Living a holy life style. Thank God for the gospel truth you and your precious family are privileged to know. There is nothing more valuable than raising your kids in church. People's beliefs on Eschatology are all over the place, it's likely none of us have it all figured out. Don't worry about it.

Keep your babies in church, blessings to your family in Jesus name.

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p.s. I enjoy coming here to discuss scripture, it's a learning experience for me. Thanks for our discussions.