Sinless Perfection

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If sinless perfection merely means "spiritual maturity", and that spiritual maturity is one in which one still occasionally sins, is that truly "sinless perfection"? Is this a misnomer for the doctrine?

Sinless perfection means you dont have sin in your life. A new Christian should have no sin in their life. When one has been saved by grace they are DEAD TO SIN.

Romans 6:1-2

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

The Holy Ghost does NOT operate the way false teachers want him to. When he forgives our sins and fills us with his Spirit IN HIS MIND we are a new creation.

2 Cor. 5:17

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The old life is gone. A born again saint should never be taught like what we hear today. Many are told we all will still sin everyday. Others are taught PERHAPS maybe years later when they are "mature" that might get better at fighting sin but they will NEVER cease from sin.

The new Christian was taught like this by the Apostles.

1Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

As new born BABES they were taught to lay aside ALL what?

Malice, guile, hypocrisy, envies all all evil speaking.

Now mind you Peter is commanding the BABES to overcome "inward sins" even in their infancy as born again Christians. Apparently they had already stopped their whoredoms, stealing, murders, blaspheming God, drunkeness ect. Things that todays false teachers act like its NORMAL for Christians to be dealing with years down the road.

So todays "ministers" are FAR from being ministers of Jesus Christ. They are ashamed to teach the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

Having said that God has provided a safety net for his people.

Watch how there are 2 parts to this verse.

1 John 2:1

1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

So the normal state of a Christian is to be without sin. A normal Christian will be walking without sin. This is hardly ever taught to believers nowadays. In some denominations it is never taught period. It is no great thing for a Spirit baptized Christian to walk without sin. It is just what they are supposed to do.

Luke 17:7-10

7But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? 8And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? 9Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. 10So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

The first part of the verse is simple to understand.

The second part is just as simple. If one would commit a sin they can confess and be forgiven. When the sin is forgiven the saint is "perfect" again. This is the truth of sinless perfection.

If you are walking the normal Christian life, having no sin you are perfect in Gods sight. If there is sin in your life at present you are not perfect before God.

I think a fair number of Christians are perfect as pertains to sin right now. They have no sin in their lives. And yet the false teaching of men keeps them confused. They think they must confess they have sin in their life even when they do not!

[Aquila]

I've known people with a miraculous deliverance from sin upon being born again. I've also known folks who let's say womanized, lied, cheated, were stealing, smoked and cussed, etc., prior to salvation. Upon being born again the womanizing, lying, cheating, and stealing stopped...but it took them time to quit smoking and discipline themselves to stop cursing.

I've also known folks who it took time, prayer, and Bible study to really come to the realization of various sins in their lives that needed to be repented of.

Under sinless perfection doctrine, were all of these individuals still lost until they cleansed themselves of these sins? Or were they justified through faith upon repentance & baptism, and regenerated through the Holy Spirit making them "saved", and their continuing work being the continuing act of sanctification?

[Amanah]

nevermind, you answered this already.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I think a fair number of Christians are perfect as pertains to sin right now. They have no sin in their lives. And yet the false teaching of men keeps them confused. They think they must confess they have sin in their life even when they do not!

Your post was a good post from the sinless perfection perspective. While I'm not certain that I buy into the teaching itself, I wanted to say that you presented it well for us and the reader.

Your statement above kind of zeros in on a major point of departure. I think sin needs to be defined. For example, if "sin" is strictly a violation of the 10 Commandments, living sinlessly is a synch. But if sin extends into areas such as obeying every ordinance of man, bad attitudes, evil speaking, gossiping, defiling the temple through smoking, eating badly, etc., then sin becomes far more prevalent in the daily lives of individuals. To those who say we sin every day, they see those who profess sinless perfection committing those acts that they see as being sin daily, without confessing them because the sinless perfection believer doesn't believe they are sin at all. And the sinless perfection believer, as you explained, feels that the crowd that says we sin every day feel all these believers are confessing daily sin, when they haven't sinned.

Where is the line drawn?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've known people with a miraculous deliverance from sin upon being born again. I've also known folks who let's say womanized, lied, cheated, were stealing, smoked and cussed, etc., prior to salvation. Upon being born again the womanizing, lying, cheating, and stealing stopped...but it took them time to quit smoking and discipline themselves to stop cursing.

I've also known folks who it took time, prayer, and Bible study to really come to the realization of various sins in their lives that needed to be repented of.

Under sinless perfection doctrine, were all of these individuals still lost until they cleansed themselves of these sins? Or were they justified through faith upon repentance & baptism, and regenerated through the Holy Spirit making them "saved", and their continuing work being the continuing act of sanctification?

If one has sin in their lives that YAH considers as a sin they will not be raptured to be with Jesus. Our lives must be perfect when he comes.

Ephesians 5:25-27

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The purpose of Pauls teaching is so we might understand what kind of people Jesus is coming for. If they are kicking and crying about the expectation of Jesus:

They could be a tare.
They could have been taught by false teachers they could keep sinning.

Again Paul teaches the same thing concerning the coming of Jesus and sinless perfection which is also known as "entire sanctification".

23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

We are to be blameless until the coming of Jesus. If we are not presently blameless we should quickly repent. If we are not blameless when he comes we will not be accepted by him.

Now you would think that people would take this seriously. That they would repent and get right if indeed they are holding some sin. Unfortunately the false teaching has hardened the hearts of many to the truth so that instead of humbling themselves to God they fight against the truth of his word.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

what does this passage mean?

1 John 2:1-2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

In context, the Apostle John wrote (remember, the original texts didn't have chapter breaks)...

I John 1:5 through I John 2:11 (ESV)
5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
7 Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. 8 At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. 9 Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

John is talking about walking in Christ's law of love. Christ's commandments were:

Matthew 22:36-40 English Standard Version (ESV)
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Christ's commandments are rather straight forward. Love God. Love others. In this we fulfill the very foundation of the entire law and prophets. This is in perfect agreement with what Paul wrote in Romans and Galatians:

Romans 13:8-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

...and...

Galatians 5:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Everything in the Law of Moses was built upon the foundational principles of loving God and loving others. Jesus boiled the Christian life down to this foundation. Every one of Christ's teachings are predicted upon these two commandments. And so, we are to walk in a life of divine love, not a carnal human love. Divine love. We are to allow Christ to live His life out through us, loving others, and loving God as Christ loves. When we "sin" the issue isn't the action. It is that we didn't love God or another enough to refrain from committing the act. Love will lead one to holiness. And so, if any man says he is walking in the light and hates his brother, he is actually walking in darkness.

John wrote these things so that we wouldn't sin. But if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus the righteous. Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. This means that Christ took the full brunt of God's wrath against us once and for all on the cross. It is through this finished work of Christ that we can come to God and be forgiven should we sin, for our sins (as a whole) have been atoned for. And Jesus wasn't just the propitiation for a select few, but even for the whole world. Therefore, this very same forgiveness is available to all mankind if they will believe in and obey the Gospel.

That's my take on it.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

In context, the Apostle John wrote (remember, the original texts didn't have chapter breaks...

I John 1:5 through I John 2:11 (ESV)
5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
7 Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. 8 At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. 9 Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

John is talking about walking in Christ's law of love. Christ's commandments were:

Matthew 22:36-40 English Standard Version (ESV)
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Christ's commandments are rather straight forward. Love God. Love others. In this we fulfill the very foundation of the entire law and prophets. This is in perfect agreement with what Paul wrote in Romans and Galatians:

Romans 13:8-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

...and...

Galatians 5:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Everything in the Law of Moses was built upon the foundational principles of loving God and loving others. Jesus boiled the Christian life down to this foundation. Every one of Christ's teachings are predicted upon these two commandments. And so, we are to walk in a life of divine love, not a carnal human love. Divine love. We are to allow Christ to live His life out through us, loving others, and loving God as Christ loves. When we "sin" the issue isn't the action. It is that we didn't love God or another enough to refrain from committing the act. Love will lead one to holiness. And so, if any man says he is walking in the light and hates his brother, he is actually walking in darkness.

John wrote these things so that we wouldn't sin. But if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus the righteous. Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. This means that Christ took the full brunt of God's wrath against us once and for all on the cross. It is through this finished work of Christ that we can come to God and be forgiven should we sin. And Jesus wasn't just the propitiation for a select few, but even for the whole world. Therefore, this very same forgiveness is available to all mankind if they will believe in and obey the Gospel.

That's my take on it.

[Aquila]

Love God. Love others.

The rest is merely commentary.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If one has sin in their lives that YAH considers as a sin they will not be raptured to be with Jesus. Our lives must be perfect when he comes.

Ephesians 5:25-27

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The purpose of Pauls teaching is so we might understand what kind of people Jesus is coming for. If they are kicking and crying about the expectation of Jesus:

They could be a tare.
They could have been taught by false teachers they could keep sinning.

Again Paul teaches the same thing concerning the coming of Jesus and sinless perfection which is also known as "entire sanctification".

23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

We are to be blameless until the coming of Jesus. If we are not presently blameless we should quickly repent. If we are not blameless when he comes we will not be accepted by him.

Now you would think that people would take this seriously. That they would repent and get right if indeed they are holding some sin. Unfortunately the false teaching has hardened the hearts of many to the truth so that instead of humbling themselves to God they fight against the truth of his word.

Your right Michael, when true repentance is worked out in someone's life it will cause a person to take sin very seriously. I believe this is what happened to the Corinthian church 2cor 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter. I think we were kinda hard on you about this topic but concerning the scripture your right on point cant argue with that.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do you feel better now, my brother?

I guess you can't answer my questions?

OK, what is going on Proverbs 18:6? Please read it in the ESV and get back to me. Also is Jesus committing sin in Mark 16:14? Again please explain the Greek usage of ὀνειδίζω in the verse. Also used in these verses, Matthew 5:11, Matthew 11:20, Matthew 27:44, Mark 15:32, Luke 6:22, Romans 15:3, James 1:5, Hebrews 10:33.

Myself feeling better or bad isn't close to feeling sad concerning how people were told the Bible instead of taught the Bible.