The Biblical tithe, re-examined

[Esaias]

Kill the bishops or you're just not serious, eh?

[jediwill83]

[QUOTE=Tithesmeister;1514510]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think the "tithe doctrine" also stifles church growth. Many don't attend church because they simply don't have it in the budget to tithe 10% of their gross income. In today's society the average middle class American family is living paycheck to paycheck.




These are both good points and they are true in a lot of cases. How does this reconcile with the following scripture. The context is that John the Baptist, being in prison, sent two men to ask of Jesus . . .

Matthew 11:3-5
"Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another. Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and show John again those things which ye do hear and see: The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, AND THE POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.

Is it a coincidence that the poor having the gospel preached to them is packaged with five supernatural events? Miracles?

Matthew 10:8 Jesus' instruction to His disciples:

Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Freely (according to Strong's, forgive me Sean), means "without cost".

I would like to hear some pastors comment on this. Please quote scripture, (if you have any).

if they really believed what they taught about giving itd be them writing the cheques.....just sayin....

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The tithe was only paid by those who had crops and land. Tradesmen, fishermen, merchants, the poor, orphans, and widows were never required to tithe under the Law. In many ways, the tithe doctrine as it is taught in some churches goes far beyond what the OT Law would ever require. If studied out, the tithe was simply an agrarian land tax used to sustain the temple and the Levitical priesthood because the priests were not allowed to own land.

It amazes me that NT leaders in the modern church claim that they should be able to collect the tithe as the Levites... but they refuse to live as the Levites.

I've said it before, but I'm going to keep saying it. The tithe being food was an important part of the picture. The logic (or lack thereof) of pro-tithers is that they (the Israelites), were farmers, herders, and shepherds, so that is why the tithe was food. Newsflash: Today, when you go to the grocery store, and you see boxes of cereal, rib-eye steaks, and lamb-chops, it is because we are still a society that DEPENDS ON, farmers, herders and shepherds.

I'm going to go out on a limb and prophesy. If the Lord doesn't return for ten thousand years, we will still be an agrarian society. I wish I had scripture for that . . . well how 'bout this one.

Genesis 8:22

While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

The logic (or lack thereof), of the modern tithe is that we are no longer growing gardens etc., to tithe from. Somebody IS growing gardens that they could still tithe from, as long as we are eating.

Do you know anybody who spends 100% of their money on food? Historically the average U.S. citizen spends from less than ten percent to fifteen percent of their budget on food. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics in 2014, the average family spent less than 10 percent of their gross earnings on food. So, if you were to tithe on the value of that FOOD, which is what the Biblical tithe was designed to do, your tithe would be 10 percent (tithe) of 10 percent (of your food) = one percent of your income.

Math is honest, twisted scripture, not so much.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

My position on 1 Corinthians 9

Now let me give my OPINION on ministerial support. If I may, I would like to quote maybe a scripture or two.

John 13:35

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

If you don't have love, you may have a problem taking care of the ministry.

If you do have love, you will always be willing to share with the ministry OR ANY OF YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS.

What you are saying is that "tithing" is under the law, but, we have a higher law, the law of caring for each other as family, as the body of Christ, and serving one another from the heart rather than giving as if we are under a burdensome obligation.

This must have been especially true for the early church as they acted like family, they met from house to house and met each others needs.

In our Institutional churches, particularly mega churches, where you can attend a church year after year and never really get to know people because of the way our services are structured, it becomes more difficult to feel as if you are a part of a family.

You would never let a family member suffer a need, you would give them the shirt off your back, you would share all your sustenance with them and care for them as if they were your own flesh, as indeed they are.

The Apostle Paul gave his life for the church, suffered shipwreck, stoning, imprisonment, hunger, peril, persecution. He was crucified with Christ, and his love for the brethren was so apparent. Of course they would love Him back and support him in any way they could.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Amanah

What you are saying is that "tithing" is under the law, but, we have a higher law, the law of caring for each other as family, as the body of Christ, and serving one another from the heart rather than giving as if we are under a burdensome obligation.

This must have been especially true for the early church as they acted like family, they met from house to house and met each others needs.

In our Institutional churches, particularly mega churches, where you can attend a church year after year and never really get to know people because of the way our services are structured, it becomes more difficult to feel as if you are a part of a family.

You would never let a family member suffer a need, you would give them the shirt off your back, you would share all your sustenance with them and care for them as if they were your own flesh, as indeed they are.

The Apostle Paul gave his life for the church, suffered shipwreck, stoning, imprisonment, hunger, peril, persecution. He was crucified with Christ, and his love for the brethren was so apparent. Of course they would love Him back and support him in any way they could.

I believe that you understand what I'm trying to say.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I've said it before, but I'm going to keep saying it. The tithe being food was an important part of the picture. The logic (or lack thereof) of pro-tithers is that they (the Israelites), were farmers, herders, and shepherds, so that is why the tithe was food. Newsflash: Today, when you go to the grocery store, and you see boxes of cereal, rib-eye steaks, and lamb-chops, it is because we are still a society that DEPENDS ON, farmers, herders and shepherds.

I'm going to go out on a limb and prophesy. If the Lord doesn't return for ten thousand years, we will still be an agrarian society. I wish I had scripture for that . . . well how 'bout this one.

Genesis 8:22

While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

The logic (or lack thereof), of the modern tithe is that we are no longer growing gardens etc., to tithe from. Somebody IS growing gardens that they could still tithe from, as long as we are eating.

Do you know anybody who spends 100% of their money on food? Historically the average U.S. citizen spends from less than ten percent to fifteen percent of their budget on food. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics in 2014, the average family spent less than 10 percent of their gross earnings on food. So, if you were to tithe on the value of that FOOD, which is what the Biblical tithe was designed to do, your tithe would be 10 percent (tithe) of 10 percent (of your food) = one percent of your income.

Math is honest, twisted scripture, not so much.

No matter what the future holds, mankind will always need to harvest the land and raise cattle to survive. And so the tithe was essentially an agrarian land tax designed to sustain the Levites who worked in the temple, the temple itself, the festival provisions, and meat for the poor, the widow, the orphan, and the stranger. It wasn't strictly to provide a salary for every Levites. Tithing as it is taught today is a serious distortion of what the tithe was all about.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Kill the bishops or you're just not serious, eh?

Did I miss something? I'm not sure what this is referring to.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

What you are saying is that "tithing" is under the law, but, we have a higher law, the law of caring for each other as family, as the body of Christ, and serving one another from the heart rather than giving as if we are under a burdensome obligation.

This must have been especially true for the early church as they acted like family, they met from house to house and met each others needs.

In our Institutional churches, particularly mega churches, where you can attend a church year after year and never really get to know people because of the way our services are structured, it becomes more difficult to feel as if you are a part of a family.

You would never let a family member suffer a need, you would give them the shirt off your back, you would share all your sustenance with them and care for them as if they were your own flesh, as indeed they are.

The Apostle Paul gave his life for the church, suffered shipwreck, stoning, imprisonment, hunger, peril, persecution. He was crucified with Christ, and his love for the brethren was so apparent. Of course they would love Him back and support him in any way they could.

Amen.

[Tithesmeister]

What we have today is entire organizations built on a system of tithing (not giving), and they (UPCI, ALJC, WPF, and others) say things in their Articles of Faith, that are absolutely not true.

Things like: God has always used tithes to take care of the financial needs of His church.

What?! The tithe was never financial (about money) in the entire Bible. It has only become money (according to the study I have done), in the last two hundred years or less. I believe the Tithes Commutation Act was enacted in 1836? in the United Kingdom countries, (England, Ireland, Scotland, possibly others). Less than two hundred years is a long way from always, and food is a long ways from financial.

My dad used to tell me to "Tell the truth and stay in the church'. These days the truth seems to be subjective, and if it is concerning tithe, it isn't even important!

[jediwill83]

I have a bad habit of not being able to unknow something once I know it....that means theres few people I can really be open about these things without feeling like Im causing division or church trouble.

One day Im going to create a youtube channel and invite you guys on for topical discussions. I think that'd be pretty awesome....and probably a bit scary and redpilling for the people watching.