Elephant in the room - accusation of judging

[aegsm76]

Do you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

What do you conclude about what's required for salvation in light of those who never believed in the cross?

i conclude that they better be seeking their own salvation, and i better be manifesting life, more abundantly and love your neighbor to them first and foremost if i claim to be following Christ.

So, you see no bearing on you from Ezekiel 3's warning to watchmen to warn others of danger? In your theology you seem to have no room fo Ezekiel 3 and warning anyone else about anything regarding the gospel. Makes me feel bad for the pastor who rents his church to us in Winnipeg who entitled his work. "Watchmen For the nations."

But if i say that the Pents across the street have some splinter in their eye, and i can't even get along with them spiritually, then all muslims are lost just becomes another symptom, like half of the congregation being divorced or whatever, troubling enough on its own.

Agreed. And if I were concerned over contrasting people's groups like you think I am, I would be wrong. I'm in need of a lot of correcting as we all are, and I have not yet arrived. However, contrasting groups with me is not something I engage in the way you think I do.

And stating that you just believe all muslims are lost because the Bible says so is denying that you are in lock-step with the state who is drone bombing them, even if you would never, what, preach it or whatever, like this belief of yours would not manifest in...well, what you have now.

Sorry, but the US government did not simply glance at the bible's need for faith in the cross and causally start bombing the middle east as I have casually remarked they're lost. Seriously, you even called it obsession, when it's so far from anything I hardly think of, and was so until you made a mountain out of a casual reference.

I have no sons, to turn into Christian Patriots to feed Molech, and "defend" cheap oil and a fake dollar while millions suffer and die, Mike. I have no daughters, to do what i most fear, while i argue that my private thoughts are inconsequential.

Sorry, I'm not the government no matter how much you think I am.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Do you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God?

Yeah, Shazeep, like, all of it?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Do you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God?

oh, sorry, yes, i do.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So, you see no bearing on you from Ezekiel 3's warning to watchmen to warn others of danger? In your theology you seem to have no room fo Ezekiel 3 and warning anyone else about anything regarding the gospel.

well, see that that may be what i am doing for you, not what you are doing to...everyone else.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Agreed. And if I were concerned over contrasting people's groups like you think I am, I would be wrong. I'm in need of a lot of correcting as we all are, and I have not yet arrived. However, contrasting groups with me is not something I engage in the way you think I do.

i understand that, you are not actively engaged in attacking other beliefs; but you still hold that all Catholics are lost, meaning you trust in your gauge for "lost" or "saved," but we are assured that God judges the heart, and we have many examples of salvation outside of your formula, so you seem to be believing two mutually exclusive things.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sorry, but the US government did not simply glance at the bible's need for faith in the cross and causally start bombing the middle east as I have casually remarked they're lost. Seriously, you even called it obsession, when it's so far from anything I hardly think of, and was so until you made a mountain out of a casual reference.

This mindset could be said to describe the whole country, and speaks to our hearts, and i give you credit for even saying it, at least you have the courage of your convictions.

You have accepted a doctrine that suggests that all who do not have your grasp of the Pauline Epistles are condemned, and i have just tried to present other Scripture that calls that into question, and suggests a return to what was "sufficient for them," before your doctrine became established, and became your "horse."

i call it an obsession because the news seems pretty obsessed with it, huh? Like Commies before them, and that's where all our bases are, where a bunch of our money goes, etc. Of course to you it is just a truism, even something you could say in humility, and it is just a coincidence that it happens to be in line with Gov policies.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sorry, I'm not the government no matter how much you think I am.

no, but you represent the thinking of the religious right, and you will be known by your company.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yeah, Shazeep, like, all of it?

yes, even the ones you like. But i consider these in the light of verses that are harder to understand, even though they are easier to read, the moreso because they seem to present another picture of salvation. After all, they cannot be contradicting your verses as they are both Scripture, and i suggest mine reflect what was sufficient for them, before yours were written.

[Aquila]

I think the admonition against casting judgment is simply practical advice. The admonition not to judge is about hypocrisy. If you're going to bring someone's sin to light, condemn their actions, or risk publically damaging their reputation.... you best be certain that you're not guilty of the same things or worse. Because when we judge like this, we open ourselves up to being judged by others. In fact, the very standard with which we measure another will become the same standard we must meet before others. Instead, we should first focus on ourselves and cleanse ourselves of our own sinful proclivities. Then we can seek to "help" others cleanse themselves of their sin or to address their issues.

For example, remember when Newt Gingrich went on the war path against President Clinton over the Monica Lewinski affair? It is now common knowledge that Newt was having his own affair while supporting action against President Clinton over his. Newt should have broken off his affair and come clean, then he should have sought out President Clinton in an effort to help him end his affair with Monica.

If I have a television or if I stream television over the internet, I have no right to criticize another who owns a television. If I struggle with a given sin, I have no right to judge or criticize another who struggles with a given sin. If I do, and my sin is exposed, my own standard of judgment will condemn me as a hypocrite in the eyes of others.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by shazeep

oh, sorry, yes, i do.

Yes of course you do, as long as it is you who determines what the meaning of each verse of the Bible is.

[mfblume]

I've asked shazeep over and over for an itemized list of scriptures that he claims refute what I believe and no list yet. and now he claims what the government does is my problem and because he claims I am right winged then I'm associated with its views and implied I'm judged by such views as well.

so goes it in the land of zeep.

[shazeep]

ok well i can pull up plenty of posts to show my point, don't forget, and i don't expect you to interpret Scripture the same way i do, but hopefully see that they don't fit into your theology too well, and recognize how they are just cut out of the bible to make your theology work. Little children, do not be deceived is pretty strong language, and don't forget how your legal quotes all seemed to have love as the horse in them somewhere, when you use them to try to make a different point. Remember? Should i dig some of those up?

So see that maybe i am not suggesting that you start on some new belief that you are not comfortable with; but that you not be judged a hypocrite based upon your own belief. If the Good Samaritan, Lazarus, the First Son, the mother in childbirth--and the list goes on--can be deemed "accepted," then it serves you to question the understanding of "salvation" that you have been indoctrinated into. You do not know.

But what you do know is that God consistently does things differently than we might expect, and Scripture is full of things that show this. So we can keep going if you want, and you can even assemble a team of lawyers if you like, and we can venture into another hairball and examine it. You might even convince me that a more literal worship of Christ has some place over spiritual worship, i don't know, but i would note any lack of humility in the operation of your statements, and suggest that you note any in mine.