Rock Hudson Repented Before His Death

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Mature adults still can slip and fall, they just don't fall as much as a toddler. I nearly fell the other day when I stood up with a leg that had gone to sleep. Stumbling, falling, tripping, missteps can happen to anyone at any age. If a grown adult falls a lot, he needs to seek help, there is something seriously wrong. But to act like Christians, even mature Christians don't sin is silly.

Why would you think for someone whose mature to be able to overcome is silly? Bro, here you go again, you start out being able to teach that we can overcome. But you realize what you are saying and therefore must add the small print to your product Disclaimer? If, again the word is "if" you sin you have an advocate with the Father. This is the Good News, people can over come everything in their lives and keep walking on the water towards Jesus and not sink!!!!!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Of course you all want to couch that in the most extreme terms---that I preach that people can live anyway they want and it doesn't matter to God---or that people can remain swimming in a cesspool of debauchery and wantonness---or that people can't overcome or be victorious. It's not true.

Bro, a cognitive dissonance within religion is normal. It is found in eschatology, soteriology, all types of theology. OK, you don't teach that people can live anyway they want, or that people can remain swimming in a cesspool of sin filled debauchery, or that people can't overcome or be victorious? But wasn't it you who posted that you can't be perfect in THIS LIFE? Overcome sin in THIS LIFE? You did post that? Bro, people draw conclusions to what is written. They will also ask for clarifications, also ask for you to explain verses which it seems you contradict. Yet, you when flop around a thread never touching top side or bottom of what you are being asked then a conclusion can be drawn.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

But say on. It helps you champion the cause of holiness and righteousness that you so vigorously believe in (so do I but you don't want to believe that).

That's why it is called pyschological projection. You end up chasing your own tail. Constantly running away from a bad religious experience (or any bad experience) but always end up biting your own tail.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

If I err, I will err on the side of God's longsuffering and lovingkindness.

The NT is not an updated OT. Striving for goodness and perfection, holiness and sinlessness was a losing proposition in the OT. Jesus came to fulfill all that we couldn't so that we could walk by faith and love with peace and joy that we are clothed with HIS righteousness and that we are filled with HIS Holy Spirit. We can overcome and become more than conquerors because of what HE did. We walk by faith not by sight and we are empowered to live lives pleasing to Him.

DB, do you strive to love your children and your wife?

Cain didn't love what he was doing and therefore his WORKS were evil, and his brother loved what he was doing therefore his works were good. When you have a love for something the proper fruit is produced. I know people who have never set a foot in any Pentecostal church, or Pentecostal movement, Apostolic, or any holiness church. Yet, they held a standard of dress, didn't involve themselves in things which you feel you missed out on. I shared with the church family about the Bermuda shorts they loved it.

But people I have met all over the United States, who did certain things not because they were TOLD, but because that is what they believed.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

So go ahead and define me and what I believe how you want or in a way that helps you display your Apostolic chops. But I know who I am and whose I am.

Hey, you don't like Apostolics.

DB?

Does God hate Apostolics as much as you do?

Or do you hate us less?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Every day we fall short of the glory of God,

You can't even miss a day? Every day you fail, everyday you fall short. They tell you, they write long lengthy books on the subject. On how you can have an overcomers life, but always throw in the disclaimer that you will fail. Not just fail mind you, but fail every day. You can't even miss a day. Paul states in Romans 6:1-2 should we continue in Sin that Grace would increase? God forbid, For those of us who have died to sin, how shall we continue in it?

Romans 3:23 isn't instructions on the Christian life, no! Romans 3:22-24 is argument on the need for salvation for both groups.

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. THERE IS NO DISTINCTION, for all (Judean and Roman) have SINNED and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

but it's okay, no need to sweat it, He sees my repentant heart, hears my honest confession,

Roman Catholic, just without the rosary, priest, Hail Marys, Our Fathers, and confession booth? Bro, who the son sets free is free in deed.

Jesus doesn't have to keep going back to the cross over and over again.
That's why the Catholics placed Him back on the Cross in their sanctuaries.
They only see Him dying, instead of resurrecting! He has Risen! The Cross is about victory not death, or defeat.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

and it's accounted to me as righteousness because my faith isn't in my ability to bat 1.000, it's in that Jesus batted 1.000 and He graciously imputed that righteousness to me by faith.

But you know where that leads?

You can NEVER bat a thousand, never but Jesus is batting for you. He plays the game with your uniform on. He plays the entire season blasting balls right out of the park with your name on them. Yet, you don't play, you sit on the bench. If you do get to play a season and strike out He just throws on your uniform to start winning for you again? Bro, 1 Corinthians 3:16, John 14:16-17 speaks of Christ in you the Hope of Glory Colossians 1:27. In Romans 8:36-37 it quotes the Psalmist's lament of suffering found in Psalm 44:22, but adds No! In all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us!

More than conquerors that is what the apostle calls the saints. He doesn't tell them that they will be less than conquerors because they will always fail to hit the mark?

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You are teaching that Paul was saying that he was the first of all sinners?

YOU say I am teaching that---but I'm NOT. I simply quoted his statement. You'll not find me posting anywhere that Paul said he was first of all sinners. Again, misrepresenting what I say is a falsehood, proving that Christians sin after conversion. You keep telling lies about me.

Paul saying that he was wretched and a foremost among 100% of the sinners

Paul was a humble man. Do I teach that Paul was the worst sinner of all sinners? NO! But then again I don't believe Paul believed in "degrees of sinners". He taught "ALL have sinned" and thereby classifies us as equally guilty. I perceive that you totem pole sin, categorize sin, classify sin in degrees so that there are gross sinners, bad sinners, sinners, and people who make mistakes. An honest person of integrity owns their own weakness. That's all Paul is saying. He's being REAL. Legalism encourages people to live secret lives, keeping up appearances, maintaining image. Paul is humbly acknowledging his own shortcomings, of which we ALL have EB, including you.

Paul taught that we should treat each other better than ourselves. He sees others as better than him. So it's not unusual that he's saying he's the worst guy ever. It's not LITERAL!

You won't get it though. You're too busy congratulating yourself on how perfect you are.

You flip flop between two poles. One side of your mouth you claim the Christian grows, then out of the other the Christian fails. Bro, that is a straight up contradiction.

EB, CHRISTIANS DO BOTH!!!!! How hard is that to understand??? If human growth and development is analogous to spiritual growth and development, then it's SIMPLE---while we are growing and learning and maturing, we are also falling, and failing, and getting injured. It's not either/or---it's both!

In 1 Timothy 1:13 Paul points out that he was once a blasphemer, not the chief of blasphemy. You are trying to refute the words of Paul by saying that it wasn't ONCE, but it is current, active, and on going. Paul is no longer once a blasphemer but the Chief of Blasphemy, and a leader of those who wreak havoc against the church with violence? Your teaching is shooting you right in the foot. 1 Timothy 1:13 is Paul saying that he was once a sinner, but he gained mercy for those sins because he did them all in ignorance and unbelief. I believe I asked you to explain what Paul meant by that?

Why doesn't Paul "I WAS the chief of sinners" or "I ONCE WAS chief of sinners"? Why use present tense? And that doesn't mean he was saying "I'm still persecuting the church and blaspheming"!!! Shaking my head...

They are going to come out with a new Quickcrete variety called QUICKCRETE EB---extra thick and hard.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

YOU say I am teaching that---but I'm NOT. I simply quoted his statement. You'll not find me posting anywhere that Paul said he was first of all sinners. Again, misrepresenting what I say is a falsehood, proving that Christians sin after conversion. You keep telling lies about me.

Bro, Pastoe Mawk, you just can't put it together logically? Bro, you are absolutely saying that Paul was currently the first of all who sin. Why? Because πρώτός ειμι εγώ means that Paul was the first in order, which indicates he was actively sinning. You can't have it both ways, if you claim that Paul meant his readers to see him as πρώτός protos then we must logically conclude that the say man who told us not to sin was confused. But since we know he wasn't confused because we read his words in context, we can only say you are confused. Am I lying about you? Not at all, I just read what you offer and form a conclusion. You can say that you don't teach that Paul was the worst of all sinners all day long, and we can even believe you. But we then must conclude that you don't have the foggiest idea what Paul is saying in 1st Timothy 15, or Romans 7. I just feel sorry for the toothless five year old. Because he will get absolutely nowhere being taught what you are teaching here.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Yet AFTER his conversion he calls himself chief of sinners. AFTER his conversion he talks about the struggle within his flesh---"oh wretched man that I am!" He speaks in the present tense not in past tense. Was he continuing to persecute Christians? No. Did he still struggle in his flesh and even fail? 100% sure.

Paul said he was chief of sinners. Paul said he was a wretched man. HE said it, not me.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I don't disagree with IF in this verse, but are you saying it's possible for a believer to attain perfection in this life?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

But perfection won't happen while walking on this planet. We still have our flesh, and in our flesh dwells no good thing.

DB, how can I walk away with any other conclusion? Did they teach you any Biblical Greek when you were in Bible college? Paul preached to the perfect, those who were spiritually complete, full aged, mature 1 Corinthians 2:6.

Howbeit we speak wisdom among THEM THAT ARE PERFECT: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought.

Paul taught that the ministry was to build the people up to unify in the faith to become a perfect man to the measure and totality of Christ.

John teaches in 1st John 3:2-3 that the saints were to purify THEMSELVES as Jesus was pure. John tells the neophytes in 1st John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. Doeth Righteousness! So, they would be as righteous as Jesus Christ! I guess your idea of Paul wasn't what John or Paul had in mind. You don't teach that Paul was actively in sin, or actively wretched? That pretty hard to believe after reading your posts. Bro, if you say you don't teach that people are to continue in sin we must believe you, but all we can say is that you don't have a clue what the Bible is trying to convey to its readers.

Maybe you should study the Bible instead of Brennan Manning.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Paul was a humble man. Do I teach that Paul was the worst sinner of all sinners? NO! But then again I don't believe Paul believed in "degrees of sinners". He taught "ALL have sinned" and thereby classifies us as equally guilty. I perceive that you totem pole sin, categorize sin, classify sin in degrees so that there are gross sinners, bad sinners, sinners, and people who make mistakes. An honest person of integrity owns their own weakness. That's all Paul is saying. He's being REAL. Legalism encourages people to live secret lives, keeping up appearances, maintaining image. Paul is humbly acknowledging his own shortcomings, of which we ALL have EB, including you.

Bro, you must be hotter than a hornet in a water hose. Man, you are all over the place. Bro, all have sinned was already explained to you. You obviously just don't understand the scripture. All have sinned meant the Judean and the Roman, speaking to a group where the Judeans believed they were saved already. Also that Romans couldn't be saved outside circumcision. Bro, Romans 3:23 isn't the lifestyle of the Church, but an argument to the Judean and the Roman. That they who were law keeping Judeans needed a saving Messiah, and Romans needed to be saved with them. For a guy who talks all about humbleness you sure burn hot.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Paul taught that we should treat each other better than ourselves.

Unless they are a suspected terrorist and then the above verse doesn't apply.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

He sees others as better than him. So it's not unusual that he's saying he's the worst guy ever. It's not LITERAL!

Now it's not literal???

How about a good old Rudy "Oh my!"

Bro, I'm the one who makes things up? I'm the one who use to run around with a Batman cape? Philippians 2:2-4 is admonishment on behavior to a fledgling church. It isn't symbolic, he actually wanted to have the church to consider others more important than themselves. Bro, your above quote is senseless. I'm praying for that toothless boy.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

You won't get it though. You're too busy congratulating yourself on how perfect you are.

No, you don't get it, and you get upset. I often wonder if you guys would get this cocky in person? I always look at it as road rage but in a computer sense. You sure you left the UPC, or did they escort you out?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

EB, CHRISTIANS DO BOTH!!!!! How hard is that to understand??? If human growth and development is analogous to spiritual growth and development, then it's SIMPLE---while we are growing and learning and maturing, we are also falling, and failing, and getting injured. It's not either/or---it's both!

Bro, I understand growth from a neophyte "little children" to young men to elders. Totally understand this, but your falling, failing, legs falling asleep, to total nervous breakdowns, seems to be part of the DNA. DB, can you get to a point in this life where failing becomes less and less, until you are walking, and running? I don't think you can see that. I think you see the Christian constantly a stumblebum all the way to their own death, burial, and resurrection.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Why doesn't Paul "I WAS the chief of sinners" or "I ONCE WAS chief of sinners"? Why use present tense? And that doesn't mean he was saying "I'm still persecuting the church and blaspheming"!!! Shaking my head...

Yeah, your head should be shaking because it has been flip flopping in every post.

Bro, I can see you don't read anything in context, and you must be so fumed as you read my posts that you breeze through them. I already explained this to you. I told you if you read Paul's first offerings in the prior verses you will see that Paul states he was ONCE a blasphemer, which indicates he was no longer a sinner, and he ONCE attacked the church of God, which indicates he no longer took part in that. You cherry pick what you want out of the verse and fly it up the flag pole. Paul in no way meant that he was currently the first of all who sin. Again, did you learn any Greek in school? Do you have a Greek dictionary? Well if you do use it.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

They are going to come out with a new Quickcrete variety called QUICKCRETE EB---extra thick and hard.

Bro, the only thing around here which is "Thick and Hard" is your head.

[Admin]

I think this has gone on long enough.

DB and EB, how about getting off each other's case for awhile?