They have no shame

[J.A. Perez]

KeptByTheWord, I appreciate your responses and I respect your position, but please consider ours.

Originally Posted by Originalist

The better question is, how does a finance system that was necessitated by the existence of a priesthood of the Old Covenant have any bearing on us since that covenant was abolished along with the priesthood it necessitated?

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

No one is saying that is not a monetary provision. If you read what Organs post above that's exactly what he is implying.

What we ARE saying is that it DOES NOT SAY 10% mandatory, now does it?
It also doesn't say that speaking in tongues is either, but we know by picking up the precepts throughout the old and new testament we can justify a Doctrine, and come to the conclusion that, when you get the Holy Ghost you will speak in tongues. This is how sincere men who pray and are rightly dividing the word come up with these doctrines, Its not all money hungry TV evangelists. But honest men dug this out.

Bro JA, the 10% mandatory tithe as it is known in churches today is NOT found in the NT.

Giving is. No one is arguing against that. Organ is

You keep trying to insist that we against the 10% tithe are not givers. I never said this.

That is simply not true. When you give as the Lord prospers you, that means the more the Lord blesses, the more you are able to give.

Every paycheck is a blessing every increase in income is a blessing, and any money you make Rich or poor is a blessing.

The apostle Paul didn't want to take up an offering of money when he showed up, so he said take care of it before I get there. "as God has prospered him" is in direct reference to 'your increase' look it up comes out that way every time.

1 Corinthians 16:2
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.


The implication is, that there is in no doubt in the new testament writers written thought that tithing was not understood. In fact The Apostle here just said Take care of it before I get there, because the Lord has been good to you. He didn't even second guess that they would have any doubt what to give.

Not one new testament writer explained how 'if what you believe is right' tithes are no longer in effect because of the New Covenant or because of the passing of the Levitical, ceremonial law or Old Covenant. If this was to be done away with, don't you think this would have been made clear by one of the writers of the new testament? The result is that we are to continue in those thing which we have been taught by word or epistle.

Tithes is not a payment, it is respecting God enough to understand that he has always reserved portion for himself. That we would always be conscience that he is our El Shaddai, he is our provider.

Just like in the Garden of Eden. They were given it all, except the one in which God kept for himself. He has always reserved a portion for himself.

God Bless You sis.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Yet, in 1st Corinthians 9 we have no indication that Paul is telling the wealthy Corinthians that the ministers needed to work secular jobs to support themselves. It is clear that they which preached the Gospel were to live of the Gospel. It was an order. When Peter said to the rest of the apostles that he was going back to fishing (his secular work) John 21:3. Jesus asks Peter to first drag the net (which wasn't broken as it was in Luke 5:6) then after Jesus provides them breakfast, He asks Peter lovest thou me more than these? It was the 153 fish which they just caught after fishing all night and catching nothing (same as when they first met Jesus) Peter tells Jesus that he did love Him as a friend, and Jesus tells Peter concerning the job that Jesus called Peter to do fishers of men Luke 5:10, Jesus tells Peter that he needed to feed His lambs. Jesus called His apostles out of secular work, and into full time ministry. The reason why they called deacons to serve tables while the apostles prayed and studied the scrolls. We have one time Paul is working with Aquila and Priscilla, and everyone thinks he was burning the candle at both ends while he was later chained between two Roman soldiers?

1st Corinthian 9 is showing the support of the ministry, they fed the flock spiritual things and were reaping the physical 1 Corinthians 9:11, Galatians 6:6.

This is all good, brother. Thanks for sharing. The Apostles certainly did give up secular occupation (but they were APOSTLES). They had a full time ministry. But did the church raise a tenth according to Old Testament Levitical Covenant? Or did a whole bunch of God's saints bring all they had, even to the selling of lands and property, to share in the New Covenant commonwealth?

Let us also remember the offering that Paul raised throughout Achaia and Macedonia for the "poor saints in Jerusalem". Was it a tithe? Or was it an offering, given according to however God had prospered them?

Lastly, regarding Paul and his imprisonment. It wasn't until he was jailed and sent to Rome that he began taking a stipend from the churches in order to rent the house he stayed in. Acts and Philippians is very clear on this.

In fact, the Philippians had abandoned giving to him, and so Epaphroditus nearly worked himself into the grave to provide financial support to cover their lack. So Paul sent Epaphroditus to them and whatever the man said caused them to realize their error and begin to support him financially.

But what was the need? The need was the chain about his neck. He couldn't work as he used to, and the only way he was going to stay out of a Roman dungeon is if others supported him and paid the fee for the rented house.

But note: Paul was an itinerant Apostle, Evangelist, and Teacher who had "suffered the loss of all things". He was also the founding Apostle and Evangelist of the Philippian assembly.

And so, per 1 Corinthians 9, Paul had a right, if he so exercised, to expect financial assistance, whether from Philippi, or elsewhere.

But what about the bishops and deacons to whom Paul wrote? Nothing indicates that they called for a tithe to first, support themselves, or second, to send "fruit" to Paul through Epaphroditus.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

There isn't any biblical account of the NT church tithing, but it is filled with sacrificially giving. I believe if we are wrong for tithe teaching it is that we are setting to low a bar. The NT church was giving all and that probably is where we need to teach people to start with their giving. Yes, Jesus did command some to sell all and follow him. Since the Acts church gives evidence of others giving all then that message must have been circulated.

Amen. The standard of giving is: Everything.

The church once upon a time used to have ALL things in common. Paul even quoted the OT precedence regarding they who had gathered much had nothing left over, and they who had gathered little, had sufficient, in regards to the manna from heaven.

Meaning?

Those who have much need to make certain that those who have little have enough/no lack.

I have ever been on the edge of poverty. But I have given above and beyond a tithe since God saved me. Not for a blessing, or a return on my investment, but as an act of worship, done in gratitude, for what Jesus did for me.

Giving something back in the form of money is the least I can do.

[J.A. Perez]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The better question is, how does a finance system that was necessitated by the existence of a priesthood of the Old Covenant have any bearing on us since that covenant was abolished along with the priesthood it necessitated?

BTW, God was not accusing the Jewish citizens of not paying their tithes. The robbing was done by the priesthood on tithes that had already been paid.

Brother, It doesn't matter who this was addressed to. The point (the principal) is that if you don't give God his portion through tithe and offering, whomever it is. This is how God feels about it,

"Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me."

That should make any thief that robs God tremble.

God has always reserved for himself a portion, and I don't want to guilty of keeping it from him.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Amen. The standard of giving is: Everything.

The church once upon a time used to have ALL things in common. Paul even quoted the OT precedence regarding they who had gathered much had nothing left over, and they who had gathered little, had sufficient, in regards to the manna from heaven.

Meaning?

Those who have much need to make certain that those who have little have enough/no lack.

I have ever been on the edge of poverty. But I have given above and beyond a tithe since God saved me. Not for a blessing, or a return on my investment, but as an act of worship, done in gratitude, for what Jesus did for me.

Giving something back in the form of money is the least I can do.

I can show anyone who cares to have a look the years I made only about 14,000 -15,000 per year, and gave upwards of 2,000 in tithes and offerings, in the same year.

I can also testify to how I sold almost all my possessions to pay the rent. I can testify to how I never had money for groceries, and yet, I never went hungry.

My brother began calling me "The Raven", because it seemed like no matter what, someone was always feeding me. I never presented the need to the church, or even prayed and asked God for provision. I just lived for Him, loved Him, loved His people, and served to the best of my ability.

I was fully content to, if need be, be homeless, when budget cuts and mismanagement caused me to be downsized to 16 hours a week at 9.00/per hour (and I couldn't get a job no matter how hard I tried).

But at least I would be SAVED, and homeless!

Let's make the standard what it once was. Not just a tenth, but as much as God directs, even if it's all.

[J.A. Perez]

Originally Posted by Originalist

You avoided my question with a straw man argument and ignored the rest of my post.

Nobody is denying that I Corinthians 9:9-14 is talking about supporting ministers. Thus your comment is invalid. So again I ask, how does Malachi effect us in any way? We are under a completely different covenant with a different priesthood all together. Furthermore, why do you ignore the other commands on tithing like....

The Levites tithed to Melchizedek through their father Abraham, so do we. We give to the church, the Israelite Gave to the temple.

Why do you have no concern on making the above fit into our modern tithing teaching?

This was the Ceremonial Law with a precept, The law has passed but the precept still stands. I know of many preachers that Give of the tithe to pay bills in the church, the church school, saints bills, funerals, trips for the youth, church vans and busses, missions all over the world, what else do you want?


And why did you not comment on the answer I gave to your question concerning Malachi as to whom he was addressing? Who was robbing God? The Levites were getting ripped off by the Priests and God considered that to be stealing from HIM. The LINE is that anyone that doesn't pay tithe and offering has robbed God, He was revealing how he feels about being robbed, the who is not relevant.


So if you want to insist that Malachi is relevant to the church, then YOU had better stop stealing from the many Levite equivalents in your congregation. Start doling them tithes out, I don't receive tithe, but are you now saying that a minister that gives his life for the gospel is not worthy to live of the Gospel? Make up your mind. what way do you want it? Please let your fingers slowdown and let your brain catch up.

[good samaritan]

I hear a lot of disdain for pulpit ministry. Today we are seeing pulpits disappearing and pastors switching to bar stools while wearing blue jeans and flip flops. People want to be entertained at church by a simulated move of God, while refusing to be a cooperative part of the local church that calls on them to be accountable. I am afraid that this number driven church that we see developing is doing far more damage than any teaching of the tithe. It has no absolutes and everything is relative. Homosexuality is creeping in through this door. Israel adopted in many of the Canaanite rituals and customs. I heard someone say the heathen goddess Ashteroth was worshiped as the bride of Yahweh by backslidden Israel. Soon many will see this religious system we call the church is missing the key ingredient, "JESUS". I do believe this is the last days.

[J.A. Perez]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I hear a lot of disdain for pulpit ministry. Today we are seeing pulpits disappearing and pastors switching to bar stools while wearing blue jeans and flip flops. People want to be entertained at church by a simulated move of God, while refusing to be a cooperative part of the local church that calls on them to be accountable. I am afraid that this number driven church that we see developing is doing far more damage than any teaching of the tithe. It has no absolutes and everything is relative. Homosexuality is creeping in through this door. Israel adopted in many of the Canaanite rituals and customs. I heard someone say the heathen goddess Ashteroth was worshiped as the bride of Yahweh by backslidden Israel. Soon many will see this religious system we call the church is missing the key ingredient, "JESUS". I do believe this is the last days.

Keep on preaching Brother! Don't back up on tithe. God cares about numbers, that 1 lost soul out there.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I can show anyone who cares to have a look the years I made only about 14,000 -15,000 per year, and gave upwards of 2,000 in tithes and offerings, in the same year.

I can also testify to how I sold almost all my possessions to pay the rent. I can testify to how I never had money for groceries, and yet, I never went hungry.

My brother began calling me "The Raven", because it seemed like no matter what, someone was always feeding me. I never presented the need to the church, or even prayed and asked God for provision. I just lived for Him, loved Him, loved His people, and served to the best of my ability.

I was fully content to, if need be, be homeless, when budget cuts and mismanagement caused me to be downsized to 16 hours a week at 9.00/per hour (and I couldn't get a job no matter how hard I tried).

But at least I would be SAVED, and homeless!

Let's make the standard what it once was. Not just a tenth, but as much as God directs, even if it's all.

Awesome testimony!!!

The thing about tithing is that it calls on people to give who may not be Spirit led. I personally rarely ever mention giving at our church. We take up one offering a week. Anyone who would bock at 10% has other problems. If you can't afford to tithe then you definitely are not going to make the sacrifices necessary to walk with God. Take up your cross and follow Jesus. That means a life of sacrifice. If where worried 10% is going to run someone off then we better not tell them all of it.

Tithing is a good systematic way of giving that has precedence in the OT, but it is just a good starting point. It is not something to hang our hats on. We need to have spirit led giving. If we walk in the Spirit we are not under the law. If we are led by the Spirit in giving then tithing isn't necessary, but otherwise I will teach tithing as a good system of giving.

I too have never worried about the necessities of life. It is the luxuries that usually hold people back.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Rudy

LIST OF TITHING OPPONENTS IN HISTORY

Plenty of Trinitarians and cults.
false doctrine begets false doctrine.