born of water

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Since we are being baptized into his authority, it's just a given that the one performing the baptism would invoke his name. But I do not see the invoking of the name as being what appropriates the work of the cross in baptism.

hmm. really?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by shazeep

hmm. really?

really. God does not forgive someone being baptized based on the words the baptizer says. That is mysticism.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Originalist

really. God does not forgive someone being baptized based on the words the baptizer says. That is mysticism.

I believe God forgives at repentance, but baptism is the graveyard ceremony. Who would leave a dead body laying around? You are right that it isn't a magical formula, but an inward work between God and the individual. The thing is that if there is an inward work there is going to be a desire for obedience.

This reminds me of grace vs. works debates. It is true that my salvation is built upon faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice. James says it best, "you show your faith without works, and I'll show you my faith by my works." Jesus name invocation is essential because in order to do things with Gods authority we must do it with his directions.

The formula isn't mystical it's obedience. My turning to God and accepting Him as Lord of my life is where I find salvation. How can a person say Jesus is their Lord if they don't obey His word. Doesn't calling Him Lord mean we are under his authority. Jesus name baptism isn't mysticism but it is part of obedience to His word.

[good samaritan]

What about those well meaning christians that don't accept Jesus name baptism? I am not their judge, but If Jesus is our Lord we should be students of His word. We have made salvation to be a selfish thing. Many people want only to be saved, and without any commitment to their savior. So many don't want to study God's word or to seek a relationship with him. They settle for "religion" to appease their fear of dying lost.

Abraham developed a relationship with God that was built on a faith that was proven by his obedience. I want to know him more and more!!!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I believe God forgives at repentance, but baptism is the graveyard ceremony. Who would leave a dead body laying around? You are right that it isn't a magical formula, but an inward work between God and the individual. The thing is that if there is an inward work there is going to be a desire for obedience.

This reminds me of grace vs. works debates. It is true that my salvation is built upon faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice. James says it best, "you show your faith without works, and I'll show you my faith by my works." Jesus name invocation is essential because in order to do things with Gods authority we must do it with his directions.

The formula isn't mystical it's obedience. My turning to God and accepting Him as Lord of my life is where I find salvation. How can a person say Jesus is their Lord if they don't obey His word. Doesn't calling Him Lord mean we are under his authority. Jesus name baptism isn't mysticism but it is part of obedience to His word.

Again, if baptism is as you say, a burial (and I agree), shouldn't THAT be what is stressed? It's being baptized into the name (authority) of Jesus Christ. If the sinner has this in view when being baptized, then I do not think god is holding over them if the preacher misses the mark. The preacher will be held accountable, not God. This argument is reinforced if that person goes on to receive the Spirit since Peter makes it clear in Acts 5 that God only gives the Spirit to "those who obey him".

On the other hand I know people who had the name of Jesus invoked over them as baptism that I really do not consider to have been baptized into his authority at all.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

really. God does not forgive someone being baptized based on the words the baptizer says. That is mysticism.

Now you are saying the Name of Jesus we speak over the baptismal candidate is MYSTICISM???

[Sean]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
"For the remission of sins" simply means "in order that your sins might be forgiven". And who forgives sins? The context here is not even orally invoking the name by the baptizer (which he should do) but one being commanded to repent and to be baptized into the authority (name) of the one Peter had been preaching about that God made to be both Lord and Christ. Is not an incantation or word taking away people's sins. It is GOD forgiving sin of those who are obedient to the message because they yielded to the Lordship of Christ by repenting and being baptized.



Is the Name of Jesus we speak an incantation?


in·can·ta·tion noun \ˌin-ˌkan-ˈtā-shən\
: a series of words used to make something magic happen

Full Definition of INCANTATION

: a use of spells or verbal charms spoken or sung as a part of a ritual of magic; also : a written or recited formula of words designed to produce a particular effect

[Sean]

So your point of view is we are speaking MYSTICISM and INCANTATIONS when we baptize in Jesus name???

We should be better off with silent baptisms to better suit your theology.(just only have the baptismal candidate say the name of Jesus themselves)




When you get done with that idea regarding baptism, prayer for the sick and casting out devils is next.(since it is just mysticism or incantations to use the name of Jesus over someone)

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Now you are saying the Name of Jesus we speak over the baptismal candidate is MYSTICISM???

No Sean. And it saddens me that you are allowing yourself to be intellectually dishonest.

Invoking his name vocally in baptism is not mysticism. Believing that when you invoke his name over someone you are baptizing applies blood and causes their sins to vanish is mysticism.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

So your point of view is we are speaking MYSTICISM and INCANTATIONS when we baptize in Jesus name???

We should be better off with silent baptisms to better suit your theology.(just only have the baptismal candidate say the name of Jesus themselves)

Again, more straw men. Shameful. The sad part is your refusal to debate what I actually said.