Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

It does not say that "Jesus is Almighty" but it does say that he "did make us kings and priests to his God and Father"

It says the Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. Then we read Jesus calls Himself Alpha and Omega.

It is as silly to disregard that because we do not read JESUS IS ALMIGHTY as it is to hear someone say they are your father, and then someone else claims the man's name is George, and you deny your father's name is George.

It does say that the book is "A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him"

Of course not. Oneness explains that. Jesus Christ is used in designation of God's manifestation in flesh. the manifestation in flesh is just that -- IN FLESH. And FLESH is subservient to God, whether it is God's own manifestation in flesh or not.

Another messenger who you say is NOT Jesus but was QUOTING god ALSO said "I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last" but also said "do not bow to me"

No, you are wrong. The ANGEL did not say He was alpha and omega,. AND THAT SHOWS YOU STILL REFUSE TO READ Rev 22:16 which PROVES the ANGEL IS NOT JESUS, but rather was SENT BY JESUS. You refuse to read that in line with Rev 1:1 in reference to the angel. You blind yourself purposely.

So if the message was given by God to Jesus who said it and was given by Jesus to an angel who also said it then either both are Alpha and Omega or both were delivering a message from God.

You are totally misreading the text due to aversion against Rev 22:16.

I told you back in the first post that Jesus is a messenger and prophet and gave about 10 references to this then told you that Jesus was delivering a message from God in chapter 1 just like the angel was delivering a message that God gave to Jesus and Jesus sent by angel in chapter 22, all nicely explained in Rev 1:1.

You fail to realize that JESUS is not the ANGEL in Rev 1:1 due to rev 22:16.... UNLESS you just fail to admit you were wrong about that now.

Jesus is passing a message given to him, like verse 1 says he is. Either Jesus is Alpha and Omega in chapter 1 and a completely different messenger is also Alpha and Omega in chapter 22 (and there is more than one Alpha and Omega) or both were delivering the same identical message from God.

Verse 1, chapter 1 says they both were delivering the same identical message from God then the whole book describes God's place and Jesus' separate place in God's kingdom.[/QUOTE]our of the option that says JESUS IS NOT GOD, rather than the COMMON SENSE conclusion that THERE IS ONLY ONE ALPHA AND OMEGA by the very meaning of that term. The double emphasis upon being Alpha and Omega (first letter of the Greek and last letter) connected with BEGINNING AND ENDING (meaning the same thing) is to relate the idea of ONLY ONE BEING who is able to make such a claim. Two cannot be the EVERYTHING!

This is tripled in emphasis by Rev 1:11's words about Jesus being THE FIRST AND THE LAST.

Your argument falls flat on its face when you read into the Alpha and Omega as being MORE THAN ONE BEING. You would sooner believe AN ANGEL can be the Alpha and Omega while at the same time the ALMIGHTY GOD is the Alpha and Omega than believe there is absolutely only one God and He is Alpha and Omega.

You claim to walk in Islam. You claim Islamic faith. Islamic faith prides itself in ONE GOD and no trinity, etc. Yet you choose to believe there is MORE THAN ONE ALPHA AND OMEGA. how anti-one God can you get?

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is your own situation when it comes to comparing Rev 1:8 with 1:11.

Not nearly the situation you found yourself in comparing Rev 1 to Rev 22 though is it

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

At least two separate messengers declared themselves to be so in Rev. One of them said "do not bow to me bow to God" as he did it.

Two Alpha and Omegas? Two everythings? Two sum totals?

You believe in more than One God.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It says the Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. Then we read Jesus calls Himself Alpha and Omega.

It is as silly to disregard that because we do not read JESUS IS ALMIGHTY as it is to hear someone say they are your father, and then someone else claims the man's name is George, and you deny your father's name is George.



Of course not. Oneness explains that. Jesus Christ is used in designation of God's manifestation in flesh. the manifestation in flesh is just that -- IN FLESH. And FLESH is subservient to God, whether it is God's own manifestation in flesh or not.



No, you are wrong. The ANGEL did not say He was alpha and omega,. AND THAT SHOWS YOU STILL REFUSE TO READ Rev 22:16 which PROVES the ANGEL IS NOT JESUS, but rather was SENT BY JESUS. You refuse to read that in line with Rev 1:1 in reference to the angel. You blind yourself purposely.



You are totally misreading the text due to aversion against Rev 22:16.



You fail to realize that JESUS is not the ANGEL in Rev 1:1 due to rev 22:16.... UNLESS you just fail to admit you were wrong about that now.




Verse 1, chapter 1 says they both were delivering the same identical message from God then the whole book describes God's place and Jesus' separate place in God's kingdom.

our of the option that says JESUS IS NOT GOD, rather than the COMMON SENSE conclusion that THERE IS ONLY ONE ALPHA AND OMEGA by the very meaning of that term. The double emphasis upon being Alpha and Omega (first letter of the Greek and last letter) connected with BEGINNING AND ENDING (meaning the same thing) is to relate the idea of ONLY ONE BEING who is able to make such a claim. Two cannot be the EVERYTHING!

This is tripled in emphasis by Rev 1:11's words about Jesus being THE FIRST AND THE LAST.

Your argument falls flat on its face when you read into the Alpha and Omega as being MORE THAN ONE BEING. You would sooner believe AN ANGEL can be the Alpha and Omega while at the same time the ALMIGHTY GOD is the Alpha and Omega than believe there is absolutely only one God and He is Alpha and Omega.

You claim to walk in Islam. You claim Islamic faith. Islamic faith prides itself in ONE GOD and no trinity, etc. Yet you choose to believe there is MORE THAN ONE ALPHA AND OMEGA. how anti-one God can you get?[/QUOTE]

Only you declare Alpha and Omega as 'must be God'

Rev 1:1 clearly explains that God gave Jesus the message, Jesus signified the message by sending it through his messenger to John.

Originated from God very clear. Proves that Jesus WAS God it does not.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Not nearly the situation you found yourself in comparing Rev 1 to Rev 22 though is it

No, because Rev 22:16 explains the situation. That similar explanation IS NOT FOUND in Revelation 1 anywhere. that

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Did not. Rev 1:1 clearly explains that God gave Jesus the message, Jesus signified the message by sending it through his messenger to John.

Originated from God very clear. Proves that Jesus WAS God it does not.

Again, you refuse to take into your knowledge that the COMMON SENSE conclusion is that there is only ONE ALPHA AND OMEGA. And in order to maintain that and accept the text that says Jesus is Him, is to realize the distinction is there between Jesus and God, but JESUS must be understood as God's person manifest in flesh. You either cannot follow such logic, or refuse to follow it due to a polytheistic spirit you have.

[mfblume]

ALPHA AND OMEGA:

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

The first and last letters of the Greek alphabet, hence, symbolically, “beginning and end”; in Revelation “The Eternal One” in Rev_1:8 of the Father, in Rev_21:6 and Rev_22:13 of the Son. Compare Theodoret, Eusebius, Historia Ecclesiastica, iv. 8: “We used alpha down to omega, i.e. all.” A similar expression is found in Latin (Martial, v.26). Compare Aretas (Cramer's Catenae Graecae in New Testament) on Rev_1:8 and Tertullian (Monog, 5): “So also two Greek letters, the first and last, did the Lord put on Himself, symbols of the beginning and the end meeting in Him, in order that just as alpha rolls on to omega and omega returns again to alpha, so He might show that both the evolution of the beginning to the end is in Him and again the return of the end to the beginning.” Cyprian, Testim, ii.1; vi.22, iii.100, Paulinus of Nola Carm. xix.645; xxx.89; Prudentius, Cathem., ix.10-12.

Smith's Bible Dictionary

Alpha
Alpha. Alpha, the first letter of the Greek alphabet. With Omega, the last letter, it is used in the Old Testament and in the New to express the eternity of God, as including both the beginning and the end. Rev_1:8; Rev_1:11; Rev_21:6; Rev_22:13; Isa_41:4; Isa_44:6.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

our of the option that says JESUS IS NOT GOD, rather than the COMMON SENSE conclusion that THERE IS ONLY ONE ALPHA AND OMEGA by the very meaning of that term. The double emphasis upon being Alpha and Omega (first letter of the Greek and last letter) connected with BEGINNING AND ENDING (meaning the same thing) is to relate the idea of ONLY ONE BEING who is able to make such a claim. Two cannot be the EVERYTHING!

This is tripled in emphasis by Rev 1:11's words about Jesus being THE FIRST AND THE LAST.

Your argument falls flat on its face when you read into the Alpha and Omega as being MORE THAN ONE BEING. You would sooner believe AN ANGEL can be the Alpha and Omega while at the same time the ALMIGHTY GOD is the Alpha and Omega than believe there is absolutely only one God and He is Alpha and Omega.

You claim to walk in Islam. You claim Islamic faith. Islamic faith prides itself in ONE GOD and no trinity, etc. Yet you choose to believe there is MORE THAN ONE ALPHA AND OMEGA. how anti-one God can you get?

Only you declare Alpha and Omega as 'must be God'

Rev 1:1 clearly explains that God gave Jesus the message, Jesus signified the message by sending it through his messenger to John.

Originated from God very clear. Proves that Jesus WAS God it does not.

I think that we must establish a Biblical foundation so that we can understand and interpret the most difficult texts.

Revelation can be difficult unless we have established that foundation. Notice how this passage identifies Jesus, the son, as the true God:

"And we know that the Son of God is come and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true; and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and Eternal Life."
(I John 5:20)

And notice Jesus claiming to be God:

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and/even Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

And notice how Trinitarians have no problem using "Kai" as "even" when speaking of "God, and the Father" (Ephesians 5:20; Colossians 1:3; 3:17; James 1:27), but they sure don't want to use "and/even" when including "and Jesus Christ". Not using "and/even" is contradictory to Isaiah 9:6.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Not using "and/even" is contradictory to Isaiah 9:6.

Yeah, what about Isaiah 9:6, Walks in Islam? Jesus is called the MIGHTY GOD.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Pretty plainly, Alpha and Omega means beginning and end, or the everything!

Sounds like a guess to me.