I'm being bewitched.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

All this talk of demonic possession and oppression will by moot when our machine overlords rise up and send us to the camps for the sole purpose of serving them.

lol

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Aquila

There is a difference between refusing to live in fear and superstition, and acknowledging that Biblically speaking there are spiritual forces that we MIGHT encounter. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Let's say the President said that most Muslims are peaceful... therefore belief in Terrorism is just fear and superstition. That's what I think you're doing here on a spiritual level.

My original assertion that has continued to stymie you folks is that no one can cast an authentic "spell" over another person without at least a couple of conditions being met.

1) The person being "bewitched" must know that they are a "target" of the "spell."

2) And, they must believe that the "spell" is efficacious (that it can "work").

I said nothing that casts any doubts upon the existence of "spirits" (or "demons" or what have you). I didn't even express any doubts about the existence of the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus. I simply offered those two conditions and being necessary for any "spell" to work.

It was the general unbelief and doubts of the actual practitioners of "magik" ("magic" and "magick") that has spawned the rather strained and forced attempts to belittle what I have said.

Meanwhile, what I have said stands unchallenged to this day.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The primary issue as I see it is that Pel really doesn't put much faith in the Bible.

Again, you have an ego problem Chris. You have expanded your own "self" (ego) to such proportions that it encompasses the collected body of literature we call the Bible.

Anyone who questions YOUR opinions is seen BY YOU as questioning the very Word of God itself. Meanwhile, from my point of view, you are behaving with dangerously extreme hubris and you ought to treat the Word of God with more respect.

I've got some free time coming up and I am able to do a bit of traveling around the end of the year. I am more than willing to visit any of you and have you show me "how it's done." I will provide my own transportation and lodging and will account for no expense or burden to you.

Just "put up" your claims. Show me how this "magick" is done. I even invite you to introduce me to your "past acquaintances" who may still be practitioners of the "dark arts." I can't promise that I will convert them, but I can show you an effective way to integrate reality into your lives.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Let's tread lightly, maybe Pel once trusted God with all his heart for something... and then it appeared that God didn't come through. Sometimes someone can go through a disappointment so devestating, it rocks their faith in God and the supernatural.

I continue to trust God with all my heart "for something." This "something" (or somethings) are not the kinds of things that you can see in this world and there is no known way to measure or evaluate these matters.

I trust God because He has given ME a promise that He has not given to any of you: Psalm 89:35.

... well, most of you.

I am trusting God for the resurrection of the dead. Since this event has not happened yet (2 Timothy 2:18), this does represent something that you have to completely trust and believe by faith without any sort of tangible or material "evidence." It's a complete "faith thing."

My "faith in God" has been "rocked" and it's been rocked by things much greater than this banter. At one time I too held to the idea of Fundamentalist Literalism. I even believed the lie that many of you spout on this forum with amazing confidence: that either it's Fundamental Literalism or you can throw your Bibles away and "do whatever you're big enough to get away with..."

I came through that experience with my faith in God actually stronger than it was when I was relying upon lies, fabrications and the needlessly boastful claims of others.

You see, I found that it is possible for the Fundamentalist to be wrong and that this error has absolutely NOTHING to do with the truth of the Word of God. I decreased and His Word increased.

My "ego" became less swollen and it ceased to envelope the Word of God. I found that no matter what I was, the Word of God stands true. The Word of God is something entirely apart from my own imaginations, culture and opinions. I can be correct about somethings and wrong about somethings: but the Word of God remains unchanged.

I discovered a wonderful journey was awaiting me. A journey of discovery that meant I didn't have to adopt and be restrained by the school of thought that development only in the late 17th Century known as Fundamentalism. The Word of God, as it turns out, is much, much older than the English Enlightenment and the radical religious response it provoked.

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I've got some free time coming up and I am able to do a bit of traveling around the end of the year. I am more than willing to visit any of you and have you show me "how it's done." I will provide my own transportation and lodging and will account for no expense or burden to you.

Just "put up" your claims. Show me how this "magick" is done. I even invite you to introduce me to your "past acquaintances" who may still be practitioners of the "dark arts." I can't promise that I will convert them, but I can show you an effective way to integrate reality into your lives.

Pel...asking someone who has practiced magick to go back to it isn't good. Not good at all.

I live in reality and I lived in reality when I was a witch. The supernatural realm exists. You don't even deny that. And there are two sides to it, again you don't deny that. I do think you're using different definitions than I am, and you're definitely drawing different conclusions than I have.

I don't believe you would hand a former heroin addict a hit...asking a former witch to cast is quite similar.

I'd gladly invite you to visit, but since I'm not living in my own space right now....

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

All this talk of demonic possession and oppression will by moot when our machine overlords rise up and send us to the camps for the sole purpose of serving them.

You know, some crazy guy showed up at my place looking for you. He was babbling about this same sort of stuff. I didn't think I should tell him anything, so I sent him on his way.

Then this big biker dude with a shotgun showed up. He was also looking for you. I figured that I had better tell him where to find you.

Hope this helps.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by pelathais

You know, some crazy guy showed up at my place looking for you. He was babbling about this same sort of stuff. I didn't think I should tell him anything, so I sent him on his way.

Then this big biker dude with a shotgun showed up. He was also looking for you. I figured that I had better tell him where to find you.

Hope this helps.

It will probably be pirates next.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

Pel...asking someone who has practiced magick to go back to it isn't good. Not good at all.

I live in reality and I lived in reality when I was a witch. The supernatural realm exists. You don't even deny that. And there are two sides to it, again you don't deny that. I do think you're using different definitions than I am, and you're definitely drawing different conclusions than I have.

I don't believe you would hand a former heroin addict a hit...asking a former witch to cast is quite similar.

I'd gladly invite you to visit, but since I'm not living in my own space right now....

Maybe I can just drive by, honk and wave.

... and you're correct. I obviously (and rather emphatically!) don't deny the existence of "the supernatural."

I am concerned a bit by the situation that I see here (not your own words or the things you have described, but others).

I see a situation where certain "magickal" folk (or ex-magical) proclaim that there is a REAL "danger" that exists from "witches" (and whatnot) putting "hexes" or "spells" on the unwary and that these unfortunate souls (many of them already Christians, perhaps most, at least nominally) and that the services of an "experienced exorcist" are required to "find deliverance."

Thus a climate of fear is induced. This climate can then be happily alleviated by employing the services of the ones who produced the climate in the first place. How convenient.

It's a bit like (on that other thread) having an "evangelist" tell you that your back pain is attributable to the uneven lengths of your legs that has only just been "revealed" to the aforementioned "evangelist." Then, onto the table you go and viola! By the simple manipulation of your shoe heel those who have crowded around will testify that your "short leg" was seen to have "grown."

You are delivered!!! No more back pain... until the next time you have back pain.

That "crazy lady" who's been coming to church lately is possessed with a "spirit?" Well, everyone knew that. Yet look at how the evangelist has healed and delivered her! Oh happy day... until her meds get changed and then the "devils" come back.

Has anyone ever followed the life experiences of some of these really desperate cases? I taught Bible studies right in the wards of the State Hospital for most of a year once. One soul was saved, though she tragically died later of a heart attack at 18. I never did reach the folks who were "feeling the colors" - they just wouldn't "snap out of it" enough to recognize that a human being was there trying to communicate with them.

The unfortunate and frightened people who "tossed their cookies" while being "delivered?" None of them stayed around for long. They were just interested in trying some other "new fangled" method of spiritism to see where their emotions were most titillated.

I'm not interested in trying to get any "ex-magickal" people back into that same old practice. I am asking if some of them ever actually left this practice.

nahkoe, you and I have dialoged for years now. I respect you and I think most of our exchanges have been when we were in pretty good agreement with one another. We may differ on our approach here - but then again, we do approach this issue from literally different places. I suppose some disagreement and misunderstandings (and differing definitions and all) are inevitable.

As I've said before to others, my only real concern here is the manipulation of others - particularly fellow believers. I've had the "Holy Magic Hair" thing come right into my own home. There are now things that my wife and daughter are involved with that include people who strongly espouse this thing. My perception is that they do so in order to manipulate people. I see this as a matter of manipulation rather than differing forms of applying "supernatural power." People are simply being manipulated.

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Maybe I can just drive by, honk and wave.

... and you're correct. I obviously (and rather emphatically!) don't deny the existence of "the supernatural."

I am concerned a bit by the situation that I see here (not your own words or the things you have described, but others).

I see a situation where certain "magickal" folk (or ex-magical) proclaim that there is a REAL "danger" that exists from "witches" (and whatnot) putting "hexes" or "spells" on the unwary and that these unfortunate souls (many of them already Christians, perhaps most, at least nominally) and that the services of an "experienced exorcist" are required to "find deliverance."

Thus a climate of fear is induced. This climate can then be happily alleviated by employing the services of the ones who produced the climate in the first place. How convenient.

I haven't seen that here, but I'm reading Mark's words through the filter of lots and lots of conversation time too. I know how he feels about this, so I'm reading the words from that point of view. If that's even where you're seeing this idea....

You may be quite happy to note that Mark doesn't offer those services. Oh no..that'd be too easy. He says "Go talk to God about that..." Bah!

Originally Posted by pelathais

That "crazy lady" who's been coming to church lately is possessed with a "spirit?" Well, everyone knew that. Yet look at how the evangelist has healed and delivered her! Oh happy day... until her meds get changed and then the "devils" come back.

Has anyone ever followed the life experiences of some of these really desperate cases? I taught Bible studies right in the wards of the State Hospital for most of a year once. One soul was saved, though she tragically died later of a heart attack at 18. I never did reach the folks who were "feeling the colors" - they just wouldn't "snap out of it" enough to recognize that a human being was there trying to communicate with them.

I don't disagree with you here. Mental illness is very sad.

Originally Posted by pelathais

The unfortunate and frightened people who "tossed their cookies" while being "delivered?" None of them stayed around for long. They were just interested in trying some other "new fangled" method of spiritism to see where their emotions were most titillated.

I know what you're talking about here.... I see things in church that freak me out. It's the same thing in a different package....

Originally Posted by pelathais

I'm not interested in trying to get any "ex-magickal" people back into that same old practice. I am asking if some of them ever actually left this practice.

And, unfortunately, I've met a few folks who I'm certain never did leave the old practice..they just wrapped it up differently. They're not particularly helpful folks..and I'm dealing with some pretty nice wounds due to this very thing.

Originally Posted by pelathais

nahkoe, you and I have dialoged for years now. I respect you and I think most of our exchanges have been when we were in pretty good agreement with one another. We may differ on our approach here - but then again, we do approach this issue from literally different places. I suppose some disagreement and misunderstandings (and differing definitions and all) are inevitable.

As I've said before to others, my only real concern here is the manipulation of others - particularly fellow believers. I've had the "Holy Magic Hair" thing come right into my own home. There are now things that my wife and daughter are involved with that include people who strongly espouse this thing. My perception is that they do so in order to manipulate people. I see this as a matter of manipulation rather than differing forms of applying "supernatural power." People are simply being manipulated.

Manipulation stinks. The whole holy magic hair thing just infuriates me. I'm sorry you're dealing with this on such a personal level.

I kind of figured we were just looking at two sides of the same coin here...I'm cool with that.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

I haven't seen that here, but I'm reading Mark's words through the filter of lots and lots of conversation time too. I know how he feels about this, so I'm reading the words from that point of view. If that's even where you're seeing this idea....

You may be quite happy to note that Mark doesn't offer those services. Oh no..that'd be too easy. He says "Go talk to God about that..." Bah!

Well then, good for Mark. If he's a friend of yours then he's going to be okay by me.

Originally Posted by nahkoe

I don't disagree with you here. Mental illness is very sad.



I know what you're talking about here.... I see things in church that freak me out. It's the same thing in a different package....



And, unfortunately, I've met a few folks who I'm certain never did leave the old practice..they just wrapped it up differently. They're not particularly helpful folks..and I'm dealing with some pretty nice wounds due to this very thing.



Manipulation stinks. The whole holy magic hair thing just infuriates me. I'm sorry you're dealing with this on such a personal level.

I kind of figured we were just looking at two sides of the same coin here...I'm cool with that.