The catching away

[easter]

Oh and bro.blume for the record I notice you didn't have an answer about the two witnesses.

[mfblume]

No need for sarcasm and put-down. I thought you did not want a heated chat.

I told you the information I preached as a pretribber and told you what people have told me they believed about pretrib. And I guess you disagree with them. I showed you pretrib statements that agree with what I said pretrib teaches. What else can I do? Why the attitude?

Originally Posted by easter

Ok bro.Blume you seen to believe you know about pretrib and if you did then you would not have to go around asking how pretrib believe.Pretrib do not believe that Jesus is only a priest.Now are you trying to tell me how I'm suppose to believe as a pretrib?

No this discussion has grown boring with you because you don't really even know how someone who is pretrib believes.You post a link about how I should believe as a pretribber

No, I posted a link to show what pretribbers said. Any more mocking icons?

We don't agree Blume,I know what I believe the question is,DO YOU?

Here's an ideal!You get in your Bible and get out of the teaching of men and you'll find the truth without having to rely on men's teachings of how we are suppose to believe.

After saying you did not want a heated discussion, alol you are doing is throwing insults now.

You said to stop talking to you since I was deceived. You apologize and do not want a heated chat, and I agree it need not be. And now when I prove my statements about pretrib teaching with quotes as proof, you begin insulting me. Ok.

The reason I believe what I do is not from men's teachings, but from personal bible study. I told you that already. I did not get this from men, though I think you wish I did. And I found out many people believed what I learned as well.

If your teachers said pretrib believe that Jesus is only a priest ,good thing I didn't read that man made garage or I could believe that.God is good and he leads us in truth of the scriptures.
Well I'm through here,you've pretty much HI JACKED this thread with your beliefs.Hope you find the truth!

They weren't my teachers. They were preachers who disagreed with me when I said Jesus is King now over the earth.

You really do not want to talk about this, do you? And one more insult to boot, huh? Thank-you.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by easter

Oh and bro.blume for the record I notice you didn't have an answer about the two witnesses.

I have a lot to say about the two witnesses. I just wanted to deal with the issue of Rom 11:25 first and then we could have done a lot of talk about the two witnesses. But another thing is that you were sidetracking the issue at hand and running to another issue. Why jump from one topic to the next before one issue is settled? Oh well, you closed the chat anyway. Probably for the best.

[Bowas]

Come on. Don't quit this discussion. Many are watching and learning. Just keep on going point by point, present your point then move on to the next point. But you don't have to end it.
I know many from the several positions and they are not all in agreement on every point all the time. No problem.
Not all pre-tribbers, mid or post tribbers agree alll the time. Not all preterists agree all the time either.
In the Apostolic movement, there are those that believe exacly the same as those in the denomial churches, even though the Apostolics may believe the denomial churches view is correct, just that they won't make heaven.
Seems to me, Bro. Blume merely presented some of what, not only he use to believe, but what other pretibbers do believe. Not all of which you believe, once again, no problem. Just various views within a particular general position.
Just continue presenting the points and stay on point.
thank you.

[preacher76]

I agree with BOWAS Bro Blume, please do continue there are many holding on to every word. We need someone not afraid of these scriptures & able to tackle them with bible & not just a theory....
What you have said is bible, backed up by bible... As long as we read with an open heart God can reveal his word in spirit & in truth, it's the hardened heart he cannot......
Until very recently I was a pre-trib, only because that's what I was taught, but when I searched this for myself, I received a different revelation....This is only for the hungry, & the thirsty & the more you eat, the hungrier you get... the more you drink, the thirstier we become...

So post away my Brother without fear nor favor.......

~Lord Bless

[easter]

No bro,blume the others are right,many are viewing this discussion.In order to continue this discussion I think the best way to continue is keep to the scriptures and leave out your personal opinions.You post untrue beliefs about pretrib belief.I don't care what a teacher claims and that's the problem,you need stick to YOUR BELIEFS and the scripture and not speculation about another's belief.
You continue claiming I don't believe Jesus is King NOW and I'm stating"OH YES HE IS"
Those who think he is only a priest must be of a different belief.My belief is a PRIMITIVE BAPTIST THAT FOLLOWS A CHARISMATIC JESUS AND THE CHARISMATIC GIFTS THAT IS ALSO A FUNDELMENLIST.
Just so you know!
You have no ideal how to label my belief because my teacher is like the kingdom"HE CAN"T BE SEEN"
So you want to continue,fine but bro. Blume don't tell me what I believe as a pretrib.I now understand why you lost faith in whatever it was you were believing.
Now to get this thread back on track and I will ignore any post that goes off the topic at hand.
THE CATCHING AWAY(RAPTURE)
THE SECOND COMING
THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT
THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH
Just so you have understanding of what I believe here is a brief summary...
The Revelation of Jesus Christ is still to come...
There is nothing that needs to be fulfilled in order for the Catching away to happen(OUR LORD CAN COME AT ANY TIME)
The Bride of Christ leaving out,going into the secret chambers
The Antichrist
The seven year tribulation
The second coming and the binding of Satan
The 1000 year reign
The loosing of Satan
The Gog and Magog war better known as"THE ARMAGEDDON WAR"
The casting of Satan and his demons into the"LAKE OF FIRE"
THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT,this judgement is only for the ones who did not take part in the first resurrection,death and hell deliver up the dead and who ever was not found written in"BOOK OF LIFE ARE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE,ALONG WITH DEATH AND HELL,this is the second death.
Then New Heaven,New earth and we spend eternity with the Lord the way it was suppose to be in the first place.
OH AND JESUS IS ALREADY KING HAS BEEN,WILL BE and don't believe any teaching that says he is not king but a priest.Just like like Jehovah witness teaching you better run from that because God says"I AM" and he is!

[Lafon]

As a matter of practice, I am extremely hesitant to get involved in discussions concerning what is widely held to be a "rapture" of the church, and this because from among all of the fundamental "principles of the doctrine of Christ" (see Hebrews 5:1-3), the things which have been embraced and propagated as truth about the "resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment" has become, in my humble opinion, the most misunderstood. Such misunderstanding has caused much disputing and contentions which generally end, not with agreement, but bruised feelings and resentment towards those whose beliefs differ from our own. Taking note of these things, however, I do feel that perhaps it might prove beneficial (to some, at least), if I made an effort to relate my own views about this matter.

In our efforts to arrive at a mutually agreeable definition of that which the scriptures disclose concerning the fulfillment of our Lord's promise to return and gather unto himself all of his chosen people (which, of necessity must entail a resurrection of the righteous dead), then I believe the essential question which everyone must determine a sound scriptural-based response to is this - which of the most commonly held "theories" about this event, that is to say "pre, mid, or post tribulationism," is the correct one, or could it be that all these contain certain elements of error and therefore there exists yet another interpretation of the scriptures which address this event that is more true?

After many years, and the expenditure of countless hours of prayer, fasting, and exhaustive study of the Bible, I have concluded that it is the latter. For me to provide an explanation that might be easily understood, demands that I compose a lengthy thesis which must begin with all that God's creation of mankind entailed (that is to say, "learning first things first"). I have concluded that unless, and until, one acquires knowledge concerning mankind's beginning, it is virtually impossible to arrive at a definitive, sound, scriptural-based understanding of our "ending" (for this is, in essence, what the so-called "rapture" is all about).

In subsequent postings, as time avails itself for me to sit here and write about these things, I will submit what I have come to embrace as the truth concerning the events of the future which are to culminate with the glorious apperance of our Lord upon the clouds of heaven, and the simultaneous resurrection of the righteous dead, after which the participants of this wondrous event will be escorted by the angels into the presence of Jesus upon the clouds of heaven. There wil be other events, of course, which will also transpire during, and immediately following this coming event, and I will address these matters in greater depth as I tender my findings.

I pray that all who are interested in this matter will choose to exert their very best efforts to set aside, at least temporally, everything which they have heretofore held as truth concerning this matter, and will carefully, and prayerfully consider the scriptural merits of the things which I shall endeavor to write about in an objective, non-biased manner. Yes, I acknowledge that this can be a difficult thing to do, but as I write this I am reminded of the words of our Lord - "except ye become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." It is essential in our efforts and desire to come to an understanding of the truth concerning a particular matter, that we exert our best efforts to "unlearn some things" first so that we are free to receive knowledge about it which God surely desires that we obtain.

Regards,
Lafon

[easter]

Originally Posted by Lafon

As a matter of practice, I am extremely hesitant to get involved in discussions concerning what is widely held to be a "rapture" of the church, and this because from among all of the fundamental "principles of the doctrine of Christ" (see Hebrews 5:1-3), the things which have been embraced and propagated as truth about the "resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment" has become, in my humble opinion, the most misunderstood. Such misunderstanding has caused much disputing and contentions which generally end, not with agreement, but bruised feelings and resentment towards those whose beliefs differ from our own. Taking note of these things, however, I do feel that perhaps it might prove beneficial (to some, at least), if I made an effort to relate my own views about this matter.

In our efforts to arrive at a mutually agreeable definition of that which the scriptures disclose concerning the fulfillment of our Lord's promise to return and gather unto himself all of his chosen people (which, of necessity must entail a resurrection of the righteous dead), then I believe the essential question which everyone must determine a sound scriptural-based response to is this - which of the most commonly held "theories" about this event, that is to say "pre, mid, or posttribulationism," is the correct one, or could it be that all these contain certain elements of error and therefore there exists yet another interpretation of the scriptures which address this event that is more true?

After many years, and the expenditure of countless hours of prayer, fasting, and exhaustive study of the Bible, I have concluded that it is the latter. For me to provide an explanation that might be easily understood, demands that I compose a lengthy thesis which must begin with all that God's creation of mankind entailed (that is to say, "learning first things first"). I have concluded that unless, and until, one acquires knowledge concerning mankind's beginning, it is virtually impossible to arrive at a definitive, sound, scriptural-based understanding of our "ending" (for this is, in essence, what the so-called "rapture" is all about).

In subsequent postings, as time avails itself for me to sit here and write about these things, I will submit what I have come to embrace as the truth concerning the events of the future which are to culminate with the glorious appearance of our Lord upon the clouds of heaven, and the simultaneous resurrection of the righteous dead, after which the participants of this wondrous event will be escorted by the angels into the presence of Jesus upon the clouds of heaven. There will be other events, of course, which will also transpire during, and immediately following this coming event, and I will address these matters in greater depth as I tender my findings.

I pray that all who are interested in this matter will choose to exert their very best efforts to set aside, at least temporally, everything which they have heretofore held as truth concerning this matter, and will carefully, and prayerfully consider the scriptural merits of the things which I shall endeavor to write about in an objective, non-biased manner. Yes, I acknowledge that this can be a difficult thing to do, but as I write this I am reminded of the words of our Lord - "except ye become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." It is essential in our efforts and desire to come to an understanding of the truth concerning a particular matter, that we exert our best efforts to "unlearn some things" first so that we are free to receive knowledge about it which God surely desires that we obtain.

Regards,
Lafon

Thank you Lafon
I believe we will meet the Lord in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.(15) According to the Lord's own word,we tell you you that we who are still alive,who are left till the coming of the Lord,will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.(16) For the Lord himself will come down from Heaven,with a loud command,with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God,and the dead in Christ will rise first.(17) After that,we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR.And so we will be with the Lord forever.(18) Therefore encourage each other with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But you,brothers,are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a theif.

This is concerning the catching away(THE RAPTURE)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by easter

No bro,blume the others are right,many are viewing this discussion.In order to continue this discussion I think the best way to continue is keep to the scriptures and leave out your personal opinions.You post untrue beliefs about pretrib belief.

I am willing to continue. Amen. But do not say I post untrue statements of pretrib teachings. These are statements pretrib teachers gave me about what they believe. If you do not believe them, fine. But I do not know if you disagree with them until you tell me. So I know now. But they are not untrue statements about pretrib belief. Instead, you should say they may be what other pretrib believers believe, but you do not. No one has a problem with that.

I don't care what a teacher claims and that's the problem,you need stick to YOUR BELIEFS and the scripture and not speculation about another's belief.

I did not speculate about anyone's beliefs. I said I gave you what pretrib teachers told me, so I faithfully repeated pretrib belief. If you differ, simply say so, but please do not say I am showing untrue statements. To YOU they are untrue, since your version of pretrib differs. No problem. But you caome across as though I am lying, when I am not.

You continue claiming I don't believe Jesus is King NOW and I'm stating"OH YES HE IS"

No, I do not keep[ claiming you believe Jesus is not King. I simply said I am glad you disagree He is not king, but pretrib teachers told me He is not. Just distinguish yourself and your beliefs from the other pretrib preachers, and maybe they can learn from you!

Those who think he is only a priest must be of a different belief. My belief is a PRIMITIVE BAPTIST THAT FOLLOWS A CHARISMATIC JESUS AND THE CHARISMATIC GIFTS THAT IS ALSO A FUNDELMENLIST.
Just so you know!

No problem.

You have no ideal how to label my belief because my teacher is like the kingdom"HE CAN"T BE SEEN"

So you want to continue,fine but bro. Blume don't tell me what I believe as a pretrib.I now understand why you lost faith in whatever it was you were believing.

I believe God corrected me when I was in pretrib teaching.

Now to get this thread back on track and I will ignore any post that goes off the topic at hand.

THE CATCHING AWAY(RAPTURE)
THE SECOND COMING
THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT
THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH
Just so you have understanding of what I believe here is a brief summary...
The Revelation of Jesus Christ is still to come...
There is nothing that needs to be fulfilled in order for the Catching away to happen(OUR LORD CAN COME AT ANY TIME)

I agree.

The Bride of Christ leaving out,going into the secret chambers

I agree totally so far.

The Antichrist
The seven year tribulation

I do not believe these things are to occur in our future. As I said, there is no "THE" antichrist in scripture that is a man. It is THE beast or THE son of Perdition, but not THE antichrist. The Antichrist is a spirit that denies Jesus came in flesh and was amongst people who were in the church and left the church.

The second coming and the binding of Satan
The 1000 year reign

The above is also not future. Just so you know.

The loosing of Satan
The Gog and Magog war better known as"THE ARMAGEDDON WAR"

I disagree the Gog and Magog war is Armageddon. Armageddon was the destruction of Jerusalem, and the Gog and Magog war is the future fight of all nations against the church.

The casting of Satan and his demons into the"LAKE OF FIRE"
THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT,this judgement is only for the ones who did not take part in the first resurrection,death and hell deliver up the dead and who ever was not found written in"BOOK OF LIFE ARE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE,ALONG WITH DEATH AND HELL,this is the second death.

I agree with this above. It is future.

Then New Heaven,New earth and we spend eternity with the Lord the way it was suppose to be in the first place.
OH AND JESUS IS ALREADY KING HAS BEEN,WILL BE and don't believe any teaching that says he is not king but a priest.Just like like Jehovah witness teaching you better run from that because God says"I AM" and he is!

I agree totally! Glad to hear you say that. Please inform the other pretriib people about this.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Lafon

As a matter of practice, I am extremely hesitant to get involved in discussions concerning what is widely held to be a "rapture" of the church, and this because from among all of the fundamental "principles of the doctrine of Christ" (see Hebrews 5:1-3), the things which have been embraced and propagated as truth about the "resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment" has become, in my humble opinion, the most misunderstood. Such misunderstanding has caused much disputing and contentions which generally end, not with agreement, but bruised feelings and resentment towards those whose beliefs differ from our own. Taking note of these things, however, I do feel that perhaps it might prove beneficial (to some, at least), if I made an effort to relate my own views about this matter.

In our efforts to arrive at a mutually agreeable definition of that which the scriptures disclose concerning the fulfillment of our Lord's promise to return and gather unto himself all of his chosen people (which, of necessity must entail a resurrection of the righteous dead), then I believe the essential question which everyone must determine a sound scriptural-based response to is this - which of the most commonly held "theories" about this event, that is to say "pre, mid, or post tribulationism," is the correct one, or could it be that all these contain certain elements of error and therefore there exists yet another interpretation of the scriptures which address this event that is more true?

After many years, and the expenditure of countless hours of prayer, fasting, and exhaustive study of the Bible, I have concluded that it is the latter. For me to provide an explanation that might be easily understood, demands that I compose a lengthy thesis which must begin with all that God's creation of mankind entailed (that is to say, "learning first things first"). I have concluded that unless, and until, one acquires knowledge concerning mankind's beginning, it is virtually impossible to arrive at a definitive, sound, scriptural-based understanding of our "ending" (for this is, in essence, what the so-called "rapture" is all about).

In subsequent postings, as time avails itself for me to sit here and write about these things, I will submit what I have come to embrace as the truth concerning the events of the future which are to culminate with the glorious apperance of our Lord upon the clouds of heaven, and the simultaneous resurrection of the righteous dead, after which the participants of this wondrous event will be escorted by the angels into the presence of Jesus upon the clouds of heaven. There wil be other events, of course, which will also transpire during, and immediately following this coming event, and I will address these matters in greater depth as I tender my findings.

I pray that all who are interested in this matter will choose to exert their very best efforts to set aside, at least temporally, everything which they have heretofore held as truth concerning this matter, and will carefully, and prayerfully consider the scriptural merits of the things which I shall endeavor to write about in an objective, non-biased manner. Yes, I acknowledge that this can be a difficult thing to do, but as I write this I am reminded of the words of our Lord - "except ye become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." It is essential in our efforts and desire to come to an understanding of the truth concerning a particular matter, that we exert our best efforts to "unlearn some things" first so that we are free to receive knowledge about it which God surely desires that we obtain.

Regards,
Lafon

After I was pretrib, I went into post trib teachings and beliefs. But I found errors in it as well. It was after post trib teaching that I studied the bible for myself and came to realize what is popularly known as partial preterism, which I prefer to call Kingdom Eschatology since it emphasizes the invisible Kingdom in which we now exist as believers. In fact, as noted here, the kingdom never will be seen.

Thanks for your input.