What's the difference?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

It is spelled "Cthulhu."

Well, I never was an avid reader of Lovecraft. My apologies. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

You said he has allowed his brother and guest speakers with beards. You also said "he requests that the regular team on the platform be clean shaven" and "he requests that those who serve on the platform be clean shaven."

What would happen if one of the regular congregant men who isn't related and isn't a guest had a beard and wanted to serve on the platform? Because you said this Pastor has a vision for "his" ministry and that includes men being clean shaven.

I could see how that may not apply to siblings or guests occasionally serving on the platform. I just don't believe, given what you have claimed, this Pastor would allow his vision of clean shaven men be marred by beards every service.

He'd be quite the hypocrite if he allowed bearded guests and family on the platform but required his platform team to be shaven, wouldn't he?

All he does is let his request be known. He doesn't impost any penalty on one for not fully embracing his request. I've known a man on the praise team there who wore a 5 O' clock shadow. He eventually shaved it, but not because he was forced to.

For the most part, people respect the pastor's wishes. He's confident enough in his ministry that he doesn't have to threaten Hell, or boot non-compliant people off the platform.

He voices his preference and lets it rest.

I've often wondered if it were a political move. He's a part of a major organization. He can say that he teaches being clean shaven, but he avoids being caught up in unbiblical prohibitions, edicts, and condemning people to Hell over it. He voices his preference and leaves it alone. It's that simple. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

No, Aquila. Take ownership and be honest. You did a complete 180. Stop with this "multifaceted" trash. I can understand a person who makes a statement contradicting an earlier statement as long as they own it and admit it. I cannot stomach a person who makes a statement which clearly contradicts an earlier statement, then spends post after post claiming they didn't and that they're just being "multifaceted."

And the mischaracterizations begin.

You ignored what I wrote. You do know this is a form of lying, right?

I'll repeat myself, just to help you see that it is indeed multifaceted:

Originally Posted by Aquila

That's a fair question.

I don't want to wax to radical, nor do I want to support that pastors can just legislate Heaven or Hell edicts from the pulpit.

Technically, a pastor can do anything they wish to do no matter who agrees or not. Those who wish to abide by any pastor's position, whatever it may be, will stay and serve in that church. Let me say that I personally do not support every position or approach a pastor might take.

Let's look at this as a gem with multiple facets. Some I don't agree with, some I do, and others I might tolerate if I feel it is approached ethically.

1.) Personally, I'm absolutely against pastors creating extra-biblical standards and proclaiming that it is a matter of Heaven or Hell. I see that as going way beyond the bounds of Scripture. This creates a "mini-pope" that has the power and authority to absolutely control a saint's life down to the very color of panty hose or sleeve length. I find this to be excessive and unbiblical control.

2.) I don't support pastors who would enforce a "platform standard", refusing anyone with a beard or who violates his opinion from serving on the platform. Why? Because it creates two classes of saints, when we are to be of equal value and service in the Kingdom. It unnecessarily divides the body without any biblical necessity to do so. If a man is born again and sanctified in the pew with a beard, then he's clearly saved and sanctified enough to serve on the platform with a beard.

3.) I have no issue with a pastor voicing his personal opinions or preferences, while allowing the saints to freely choose to honor those opinions or preferences or not. This pastor that I mentioned has stated that his preference is a ministry that is clean shaven. However, he doesn't prohibit men with beards from ever being on the platform. Nor does he condemn to Hell anyone who has a different preference. Out of love, the vast majority embrace his vision. But he will not deny the platform or condemn to Hell anyone who disagrees. This, I can support.

I guess when it comes to pastoral preferences, my support is given or denied based on how the pastor approaches it. Does he approach it in a forceful authoritarian manner, or as a gentle request without creating division or any repercussion if another is of a different opinion.

So, it's a fine line. The attitude and spirit of the pastor goes a long way with me.

Let's summarize the three points made above to reveal that yes, I do have a multifaceted approach. I'm not a raging fundamentalist, so, I do have greater liberty to think of the issue from multiple perspectives. You hold the fundamentalist position, you can't look at it that way and make logical concessions, lest your comrades turn on you and accuse you of compromise. lol

In point number one, the example pastor preaches people into Hell over facial hair. Something that is as unbiblical as a Passover ham.

In point number two, the example pastor doesn't preach people into Hell, but divides the body into second and first class saints. This too is unbiblical.

In point number three, the example pastor voices his preference and leaves people to choose for themselves what they will do, with no threats, or sanctions placed on the individuals who disagree.

Three very different approaches.

Of course, my preferred approach is to just return to the Bible and ignore all this extra-biblical prohibitions and mumbo jumbo altogether.

What I posted a few months ago about Pastors being able to (let's use your word) make "requests" and establish a "vision" of their ministry is no different than what you have posted about this Pastor.

Yet you condemned my post and the Pastors who would do such a thing.

Your post isn't entirely the same. Your theoretical pastor would make requests, establish vision, and remove non-compliant men from the platform, would he not?

If so, he's very different from the pastor I'm talking about who voices his requests, establishes his vision, and just allows everyone to comply or not comply, without sanction or any form of force on the issue.

Now, if the pastor you were talking about is like the pastor I'm talking about (it might even be the same guy) then we are in agreement and I just misunderstood you.

Would your theoretical pastor voice his preference, establish his vision, and remove men from the platform if they grew a beard? If so, my understanding of what you were saying is spot on, and I still disagree with it. If not, then I misunderstood what you were saying and we're in agreement.

The question is... does this pastor you speak of use any authority or power to force his preference and vision on others? Or does he just express it and let it be?

[n david]

Since all you're doing now is pointing back to this post as your excuse for flip flopping and tripping over your own feet, let's break it down by comparing what I posted a few months ago (which you condemned and waxed the elephant against) to what you recently posted:

My post from March of this year:
"""Here's the deal, and I know you won't like it, but it is what it is so deal with it: if a Pastor wants to have a dress code for those participating on the platform there is nothing wrong with doing so. In fact, and you're really not going to like this, he doesn't have to have scripture and verse to do so. Period. End of story."""

Your post from a few days ago:
"""He requests that the regular team on the platform be clean shaven."
"""As he puts it, he has a vision regarding the look and feel of his ministry."""
"""So, he requests that those who serve on the platform be clean shaven."""
"""as a pastor, he is within bounds to request what he desires."""

Originally Posted by Aquila

1.) Personally, I'm absolutely against pastors creating extra-biblical standards and proclaiming that it is a matter of Heaven or Hell. I see that as going way beyond the bounds of Scripture. This creates a "mini-pope" that has the power and authority to absolutely control a saint's life down to the very color of panty hose or sleeve length. I find this to be excessive and unbiblical control.

As stated back in March, my Pastor doesn't believe it's a heaven/hell issue. Nor does he believe it's a sin for men to grow a beard. He simply "requests" that men who serve on the platform be clean shaven.

Originally Posted by Aquila

2.) I don't support pastors who would enforce a "platform standard", refusing anyone with a beard or who violates his opinion from serving on the platform. Why? Because it creates two classes of saints, when we are to be of equal value and service in the Kingdom. It unnecessarily divides the body without any biblical necessity to do so. If a man is born again and sanctified in the pew with a beard, then he's clearly saved and sanctified enough to serve on the platform with a beard.

Other than his brother and guests who might occasionally preach, you state this Pastor requests men who serve on the platform be clean shaven.

Are there any men who are members of that church who have a beard and serve on the platform during every service. I'm going to bet the answer is no.

There's a reason for this. Contrary to what you're trying to claim about this Pastor, he really doesn't like beards or want them on the platform. His vision of clean shaven men proves this. Now, he tolerates the brother and occasional guest with a beard, but I would bet the bank he wouldn't allow a bearded man to serve on the platform each and every service.

This Pastor has a platform standard for the "regular people." He has a vision of clean shaven men and requests those serving on the platform (excluding occasional visits from the brother and guests) to be clean shaven.

Originally Posted by Aquila

3.) I have no issue with a pastor voicing his personal opinions or preferences, while allowing the saints to freely choose to honor those opinions or preferences or not. This pastor that I mentioned has stated that his preference is a ministry that is clean shaven. However, he doesn't prohibit men with beards from ever being on the platform. Nor does he condemn to Hell anyone who has a different preference. Out of love, the vast majority embrace his vision. But he will not deny the platform or condemn to Hell anyone who disagrees. This, I can support.

Same as I posted above.

I'd like to know if there are any regular members who are bearded and serve on the platform each service. I would bet there isn't. He tolerates the occasional beard on the platform, but don't be naive, he has a platform standard.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I guess when it comes to pastoral preferences, my support is given or denied based on how the pastor approaches it. Does he approach it in a forceful authoritarian manner, or as a gentle request without creating division or any repercussion if another is of a different opinion.

So, it's a fine line. The attitude and spirit of the pastor goes a long way with me.

But here's the deal, even if the Pastor requests the regular men be clean shaven, as I posted back in March, at that time you were completely against it.

Now suddenly you have a bunch of personalities and faces and did a 180.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

All he does is let his request be known. He doesn't impost any penalty on one for not fully embracing his request. I've known a man on the praise team there who wore a 5 O' clock shadow. He eventually shaved it, but not because he was forced to.

Do you know this for a fact, or are you just assuming?

[berkeley]

Now suddenly you have a bunch of personalities and faces and did a 180.

He must be dizzy by now.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Well, I never was an avid reader of Lovecraft. My apologies. lol

Neither am I, but no one is going to have a clue what you are talking about. Especially using such a name as a reference.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

And the mischaracterizations begin.

You ignored what I wrote. You do know this is a form of lying, right?

1) I didn't mischaracterize you. It is what it is. You flip flopped and now you're doing what you always do when caught contradicting yourself -- spin spin spin and use the excuse, "well I'm just being multifaceted." Gimme a break, man.
2) I didn't ignore what you wrote. It just took longer to respond to.
3) The only lie is the blatant one you just made, claiming I ignored what you posted, when in fact I responded to what you posted.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Let's summarize the three points made above to reveal that yes, I do have a multifaceted approach. I'm not a raging fundamentalist, so, I do have greater liberty to think of the issue from multiple perspectives. You hold the fundamentalist position, you can't look at it that way and make logical concessions, lest your comrades turn on you and accuse you of compromise.

It amazes me how you whine and whimper about how you're mischaracterized, but then you turn around and do it to someone else.

First, spare me the "my view is better than your view." That's a steaming pile of bovine excrement. You're too clever by half, and that's being generous.

Talk about mischaracterizations -- suggesting I'm a raging fundamentalist who can't look at things logically is incredibly wrong.

Let me correct the record again. I've had to do this more than once with you on this issue. I am not against beards. I do not believe it's a sin for a man to grow a beard. I do not believe this is a heaven/hell issue, nor do I condemn men who grow beards.

What I do believe is that Pastors are "within bounds to request what [they] desire." I believe they are within their role to have "a vision regarding the look and feel of [their] ministry." I believe they should be able to "request that those who serve on the platform be clean shaven."

So to claim your view is better than mine, and to claim I'm some "raging fundamentalist" who is some kind of wimp, afraid of my "comrades" turning on me and accusing me of compromise is just flat wrong.

We don't have to guess now at why you ran away from the thread the other day. You were busy trying to come up with some response as to why you flip flopped.

Originally Posted by Aquila

In point number one, the example pastor preaches people into Hell over facial hair. Something that is as unbiblical as a Passover ham.

Not an issue. Most on here have agreed that it is not a sin, nor is it a heaven/hell issue.

Originally Posted by Aquila

In point number two, the example pastor doesn't preach people into Hell, but divides the body into second and first class saints. This too is unbiblical.

""as a pastor, he is within bounds to request what he desires.""
""He requests those who serve on the platform be clean shaven.""

But he tolerates the occasional visit from his bearded brother and guest ministers, so that makes it okay. There's still the case of the singer with the 5 o'clock shadow who suddenly decided to shave it. You claim he wasn't forced to do it, but we don't really know why.

Originally Posted by Aquila

In point number three, the example pastor voices his preference and leaves people to choose for themselves what they will do, with no threats, or sanctions placed on the individuals who disagree.

My Pastor, who you condemned back in March, recently asked me to help with a mid-week service. I had just arrived, barely on time for the service and had a 3-day growth of stubble. He told me not to worry about it, that there wasn't anything in the Bible against it, it was just his preference to have men be clean shaven. I politely declined, because I respect my Pastor and his preference that men be clean shaven.

Regardless of all this mumbo jumbo you're posting about having a bunch of different faces on the issue, the fact is that you did a complete 180 from what you posted in March.

I stated that a Pastor is able to make requests without having to show chapter and verse. You condemned it. Then a couple days ago, you posted that "as a pastor, he is within bounds to request what he desires." That is a textbook flip flop. That is not a mischaracterization.

I could understand if it was just me seeing it and no one else did. But there were more than just me who noticed the contradiction in the posts.

[n david]

Originally Posted by berkeley

He must be dizzy by now.

After so many times of doing this, he's become used to it and it doesn't faze him.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Since all you're doing now is pointing back to this post as your excuse for flip flopping and tripping over your own feet, let's break it down by comparing what I posted a few months ago (which you condemned and waxed the elephant against) to what you recently posted:

My post from March of this year:
"""Here's the deal, and I know you won't like it, but it is what it is so deal with it: if a Pastor wants to have a dress code for those participating on the platform there is nothing wrong with doing so. In fact, and you're really not going to like this, he doesn't have to have scripture and verse to do so. Period. End of story."""

Your post from a few days ago:
"""He requests that the regular team on the platform be clean shaven."
"""As he puts it, he has a vision regarding the look and feel of his ministry."""
"""So, he requests that those who serve on the platform be clean shaven."""
"""as a pastor, he is within bounds to request what he desires."""



As stated back in March, my Pastor doesn't believe it's a heaven/hell issue. Nor does he believe it's a sin for men to grow a beard. He simply "requests" that men who serve on the platform be clean shaven.


Other than his brother and guests who might occasionally preach, you state this Pastor requests men who serve on the platform be clean shaven.

Are there any men who are members of that church who have a beard and serve on the platform during every service. I'm going to bet the answer is no.

There's a reason for this. Contrary to what you're trying to claim about this Pastor, he really doesn't like beards or want them on the platform. His vision of clean shaven men proves this. Now, he tolerates the brother and occasional guest with a beard, but I would bet the bank he wouldn't allow a bearded man to serve on the platform each and every service.

This Pastor has a platform standard for the "regular people." He has a vision of clean shaven men and requests those serving on the platform (excluding occasional visits from the brother and guests) to be clean shaven.


Same as I posted above.

I'd like to know if there are any regular members who are bearded and serve on the platform each service. I would bet there isn't. He tolerates the occasional beard on the platform, but don't be naive, he has a platform standard.


But here's the deal, even if the Pastor requests the regular men be clean shaven, as I posted back in March, at that time you were completely against it.

Now suddenly you have a bunch of personalities and faces and did a 180.

Look, you don't even know the guy's name and you're writing about what he'd probably do. lol Use your illusion baby! Use your illusion! LOL

I already explained myself.

Now, your choice is to accept what I'm telling you and acknowledge the difference... or … you can live believing in your self created illusion regarding what I wrote to avoid having to actually "understand" what I'm saying. The problem is in your own mind, not with me.

I'll reiterate the difference between what I'm talking about now and what you were talking about then...

The difference is in the use/abuse of authority. The pastor I'm talking about doesn't force the issue. He only has voiced his preference in leadership meetings. No one with a beard will be, or has been, removed from the platform. He has been known to tease them a bit as he looks back over his shoulder, but they are not be removed. He's even teased his brother over his beard on occasion. But the brother is welcome to preach behind the pulpit.

Would the pastor you spoke about back in March remove anyone from the platform that didn't conform to his preference? If so, there is a marked difference between what we're talking about in the way of the use of authority.

You're only making yourself look like you are incapable of paying attention to finer details.