Why do you keep on using the phrase, "bring many sons to glory", when to become a son of GOD, one must believe in HIM, as John 1 says. Also, does UR take the position that humans are innately good, because my knowledge of the Bible puts man as innately evil, and therefore finding "gold" in a sinner isn't going to happen, as much as they are beaten up and burned.
-Bro. Alex
Alex,
You seemed to have taken one point out of context of the whole, UR does not suggest that anyone becomes a son or daughter of God without believing in the work of the Cross.
UR takes the position that all men are contaminated with sin because of the the act of Adam. But we also take the position that just as the action of Adam condemned mankind, the action of Jesus reverses what Adam causes.
You no doubt have no trouble accepting the fact that Adam's one act condemned the whole of mankind, without any act of mankind as a whole. So why is it a stretch for the death of Christ to reconcile all mankind, is not the cure as powerful as the disease? Is not the blood of Christ at least as effective as the sin of Adam?
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
Why do you keep on using the phrase, "bring many sons to glory", when to become a son of GOD, one must believe in HIM, as John 1 says. Also, does UR take the position that humans are innately good, because my knowledge of the Bible puts man as innately evil, and therefore finding "gold" in a sinner isn't going to happen, as much as they are beaten up and burned.
-Bro. Alex
Absolutely Bro. Alex, one must believe in Jesus Christ to become a son of God. And yes, UR teaches that humans are fallen sinful creatures...that's why Jesus had to die for humanity. No soul will be saved outside of believing in and submitting to the Lord Jesus Christ. But here's the catch...UR doesn't teach that death separates us from the love of God in Christ. UR teaches that God's grace is still just as powerful to save the lost after death as it is in this life.
Bro. Alex, God speaks of trial as a refiner's fire. It tries the soul and refines it as one refines gold or silver, bringing the dross to the top to be removed. Trial, suffering, sorrow, loss...all these things work to refine us in this life. In UR a person who doesn't know Jesus Christ will be judged and will go to Hell after death. However, UR believes that Hell serves a purpose. It is the ultimate trial and punishment for the soul...fearsome, horrible, beyond words. This trial isn't to torture a soul forever...but rather is designed to punish a soul with an everlasting punishment. Not punishment in the sense of unending beatings, torture, and pain...but a punishment intended to bring everlasting correction. Through this fire these souls are brought to the place of absolute surrender, dependence upon, and submission to God's authority. No desire to sin will be lift, the fire will refine that from that souls psyche. Once this is accomplished God's grace saves them just as it saves those who are alive. That soul has paid the "last penny" (as Jesus said) and endured their "stripes", rather they be many or few (again as Jesus said). When they cry out from Hell God hears them...and every man is raised in his own order as he comes to reconciliation that God might be all in all. It's a brutal process, a terrible fate to endure. For some souls it may last hundreds, thousands, ten thousand, a million, or billions of years... or perhaps even an age beyond human reasoning to be adequately punished to the point of bringing that soul to absolute surrender to God and desire to be sinless. This process isn't a demented torture inflicted by a vindictive God...but rather a God who is Holy and loves all souls enough to purify them no matter how long it takes. Had Jesus not died on the cross God would indeed by justified in allowing all souls to burn forever...however, because of the cross God is now justified in saving all souls. UR holds that at some point in the dateless eternity all souls will eventually be reconciled to God and give Christ praise and honor for the sacrifice he made that facilitated their reconciliation. No soul will be saved outside of God's grace found in Christ Jesus. All souls will turn to the cross. In the end God will be glorified by all creation through Christ Jesus.
Many might say, "Well then, why even repent and believe the Gospel in this life?"
Well...according to UR burning in Hell's flame for 100 years or even a thousand years is no a joke. Remember...no soul knows how long they will be there. Also it might shock you....but UR teaches that God isn't trying to save the world right now. That's right...you heard me correctly. God isn't trying to save the world in this age. Instead God is calling out from among the nations a "church", a called out body of believers. This church is to spread the Gospel to as many people as possible so that they might have a chance to be saved from Hell's flame. The church is appointed to rule and reign with Christ throughout all eternity. Those who are not part of the church do not have this promise. Here, many are called but few are chosen. While all will ultimately be reconciled...those who never knew Christ or rejected the Gospel are the nations that will be reigned over. Those in the Church will reign as kings and priests with Christ over all peoples and nations throughout all eternity. So, according to UR, the ultimate mission of the church is two fold. To proclaim the Gospel in this world, warning all souls to run to Christ to escape Hell... and to prepare a kingdom of kings and priests to rule with Christ Jesus. UR would encourage all Christians to remain faithful that we might rule and reign with him, not being found ashamed at his coming.
That's my understanding of UR based on the UR books I have read.
Some through the waters, some through the flood,
Some through the fire, but all through the blood;
Some through the waters, some through the flood,
Some through the fire, but all through the blood;
Another phrase not in Scripture. Some of the explanations given by yourself and crakjak seem to often hit at emotion and not at Scripture. This UR view of GOD is also sort of like Big Brother, in George Orwell's 1984, shall we call hell the, "Ministry of Love."
When I read eternal, or everlasting, I see the effects of the punishment GOD is going to inflict on the wicked as being complete and total destruction and separation. My question as to how "gold" can be found in one of the wicked was still not answered.
Quote:
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
These people are separated from the presence of GOD, what makes you think they will have any opportunity or ability to accept GOD, since without the Holy Ghost we can not even come to GOD. Also, baptism and HG infilling are out of the picture in this hell-fire salvation plan.
Does the smoke of the wicked's torment go up forever (in the sense of this being a catastrophic judgment for sin, where the smoke of their torment goes up into eternity)- or do the wicked eventually end up in Heaven with the constant smell of smoke?
Another phrase not in Scripture. Some of the explanations given by yourself and crakjak seem to often hit at emotion and not at Scripture. This UR view of GOD is also sort of like Big Brother, in George Orwell's 1984, shall we call hell the, "Ministry of Love."
When I read eternal, or everlasting, I see the effects of the punishment GOD is going to inflict on the wicked as being complete and total destruction and separation. My question as to how "gold" can be found in one of the wicked was still not answered.
These people are separated from the presence of GOD, what makes you think they will have any opportunity or ability to accept GOD, since without the Holy Ghost we can not even come to GOD. Also, baptism and HG infilling are out of the picture in this hell-fire salvation plan.
Does the smoke of the wicked's torment go up forever (in the sense of this being a catastrophic judgment for sin, where the smoke of their torment goes up into eternity)- or do the wicked eventually end up in Heaven with the constant smell of smoke?
-Bro. Alex
Alex,
All humanity is part of the creation of God, all humans have potential, that is the gold that will be refined. That which God saw in each human when He authored their birth, personality, temperament, the raw material of a child of God.
Do you remember this scripture?
Exodus 21:33-34 "If a man uncovers a pit or digs one and fails to cover it and an ox or a donkey falls into it, 34 the owner of the pit must pay for the loss; he must pay its owner, and the dead animal will be his".
God will not leave mankind dead, He has not left us alone.
Think about it, God is the first cause of all things, He takes responsibility for His creation. Adam and Eve were created innocent, but not perfect, who created them in that state. Who placed the tree of good and evil in the garden? Who created the serpent and allowed him into Eden? God is the "author and the finisher" He will not leave mankind orphaned. He will finally bring all humanity into right relationship with Himself and with each other.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
It’s merely the chorus of a song that expresses the sentiment of this teaching. I never intended it to be regarded as Scripture.
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Some of the explanations given by yourself and crakjak seem to often hit at emotion and not at Scripture.
Well…here’s what I’ll do just for you son…I’ll quote myself and give the Scripture references.
Absolutely Bro. Alex, one must believe in Jesus Christ to become a son of God (John 1:12). And yes, UR teaches that humans are fallen sinful creatures...that's why Jesus had to die for humanity (Romans 5:8). No soul will be saved outside of believing in and submitting to the Lord Jesus Christ (John 3:16). But here's the catch...UR doesn't teach that death separates us from the love of God in Christ (Romans 8:38). UR teaches that God's grace is still just as powerful to save the lost after death as it is in this life (John 11:25; I Peter 3:19).
Bro. Alex, God speaks of trial as a refiner's fire. It tries the soul and refines it as one refines gold or silver, bringing the dross to the top to be removed (Malachi 3:2). Trial, suffering, sorrow, loss...all these things work to refine us in this life (Job 23:10; Romans 5:3). In UR a person who doesn't know Jesus Christ will be judged and will go to Hell after death (Matthew 25:46; Hebrews 9:27). However, UR believes that Hell serves a purpose (Lamentations 3:31-32). It is the ultimate trial and punishment for the soul...fearsome, horrible, beyond words (Matthew 8:12). This trial isn't to torture a soul forever...but rather is designed to punish a soul with an everlasting punishment. Not punishment in the sense of unending beatings, torture, and pain...but a punishment intended to bring everlasting correction (Matthew 5:26; Matthew 25:46; Luke 12:47-48). Through this fire these souls are brought to the place of absolute surrender, dependence upon, and submission to God's authority (Philippians 2:10-11). No desire to sin will be left; the fire will refine that from that souls psyche (Matthew 5:26; Matthew 25:46; Luke 12:47-48). Once this is accomplished God's grace saves them just as it saves those who are alive (Romans 8:38). That soul has paid the "last penny" (as Jesus said) and endured their "stripes", rather they be many or few (again as Jesus said) (Matthew 5:26; Matthew 25:46; Luke 12:47-48). When they cry out from Hell God hears them...and every man is raised in his own order as he comes to reconciliation that God might be all in all (Psalm 86:13; I Peter 3:19; I Corinthians 15:23). It's a brutal process, a terrible fate to endure (Colossians 3:6). For some souls it may last hundreds, thousands, ten thousand, a million, or billions of years... or perhaps even an age beyond human reasoning to be adequately punished to the point of bringing that soul to absolute surrender to God and desire to be sinless (Matthew 25:46). This process isn't a demented torture inflicted by a vindictive God...but rather a God who is Holy and loves all souls enough to purify them no matter how long it takes (Psalm 51:8; Hebrews 12:6). Had Jesus not died on the cross God would indeed by justified in allowing all souls to burn forever...however, because of the cross God is now justified in saving all souls (John 1:29; I Corinthians 15:21-22). UR holds that at some point in the dateless eternity all souls will eventually be reconciled to God and give Christ praise and honor for the sacrifice he made that facilitated their reconciliation (Psalm 86:9; Philippians 2:10-11). No soul will be saved outside of God's grace found in Christ Jesus (John 3:16; Acts 3:20-21; I Corinthians 15:22) . All souls will turn to the cross. In the end God will be glorified by all creation through Christ Jesus (Psalm 86:9; Philippians 2:10-11).
Many might say, "Well then, why even repent and believe the Gospel in this life?" (Jonah 4:4-11; Romans 9:14-16)
This UR view of GOD is also sort of like Big Brother, in George Orwell's 1984, shall we call hell the, "Ministry of Love."
The idea of an eternal hell of torture would make God no better than Saddam Hussein, likewise, the idea that God would burn up and totally destroy his enemies in this furnace of fire makes him no better than Hitler. There was a picture I saw once of the ovens in Dakow or Auschwitz. This one picture showed where people were piled onto each other clawing at the wall, the soot leaving the image of their hands clawing for life in their horrified efforts to escape. For both those who believe in unending torments or annihilation…this is what God appears to do to the majority of mankind…most of which never even heard the full truth. The idea of a refiner’s fire is just; it punishes sin and speaks to God’s nature as Father, punishing us to discipline us. What father doesn’t punish their children to get them to become right?
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When I read eternal, or everlasting, I see the effects of the punishment GOD is going to inflict on the wicked as being complete and total destruction and separation. My question as to how "gold" can be found in one of the wicked was still not answered.
Bro…I’m not a Calvinist. Man is fallen, contaminated with sin…that doesn’t mean he has no value or goodness in him. 9/11 showed a lot of gold coming out of unsaved people son. Most illustrations that preachers use are about unsaved athletes or historical figures, showing the gold shining through. Our Founding Fathers died unsaved individuals…however the Constitution and their passion for liberty was gold in their souls. Trial and chastening will bring out the gold in a person. Job knew that after he had been tried, he’d come forth as pure gold. Think on that seriously son.
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These people are separated from the presence of GOD, what makes you think they will have any opportunity or ability to accept GOD, since without the Holy Ghost we can not even come to GOD. Also, baptism and HG infilling are out of the picture in this hell-fire salvation plan.
Great questions! I love it! Here son, where does the Bible state that one is indeed separated from the presence of God? David said…
Psalm 139:7-8
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Paul said…
Romans 8:35-39
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Nothing can separate a person from the love of God in Christ Jesus…nothing. The only “separation” is in regards to quality of relationship. A man may feel separated from God because of his impurity. Jesus said, “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8). You see it isn’t that God isn’t there…it isn’t that they are spatially separated from God. It’s that their hearts are far from him. A man draws near to God by purifying himself. The deeper the purity the closer one is to God. The deeper the purity the more clearly one sees God and senses the presence of God that has been there all along. UR holds out the hope that souls in Hell will be purified, their hearts and wills being broken, bringing them to an undying desire to see God and to be near him…this will tap into a Grace that transcends all boundaries…even death itself.
Quote:
Does the smoke of the wicked's torment go up forever (in the sense of this being a catastrophic judgment for sin, where the smoke of their torment goes up into eternity)- or do the wicked eventually end up in Heaven with the constant smell of smoke?
-Bro. Alex
That is a very symbolic passage. If you’re an annihilationist then you understand the concept that eventually the smoke and torments will end. UR agrees with you. However, UR comes to a different conclusion as to why these things end. The annihilationist believes that these things end because a vindictive and vengeful God totally destroys most of mankind in the fires of Hell (the lake of fire). UR teaches that it comes to an end because the blood allows God to reconcile the unsaved through the fires of Hell, yes the blood making even this possible.
I hope this helps you gain a greater understanding of the UR’s position
I am unsure as to what to say yet, I am needing to think things over. I still do not see the "us" that Romans 8 said will not be separated from the love of GOD thru death, being all humanity, but I see that referring to the church.
All humanity is part of the creation of God, all humans have potential, that is the gold that will be refined. That which God saw in each human when He authored their birth, personality, temperament, the raw material of a child of God.
Do you remember this scripture?
Exodus 21:33-34 "If a man uncovers a pit or digs one and fails to cover it and an ox or a donkey falls into it, 34 the owner of the pit must pay for the loss; he must pay its owner, and the dead animal will be his".
God will not leave mankind dead, He has not left us alone.
Think about it, God is the first cause of all things, He takes responsibility for His creation. Adam and Eve were created innocent, but not perfect, who created them in that state. Who placed the tree of good and evil in the garden? Who created the serpent and allowed him into Eden? God is the "author and the finisher" He will not leave mankind orphaned. He will finally bring all humanity into right relationship with Himself and with each other.
BUMP for Bro. Alex
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
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