Tithing…Is it a command?

[SwordmanJr]

Originally Posted by rava61

So, basically if we believe and practice 'tithing', then we have fallen into the same trap of the Catholic Church in believing that we can 'buy our way into heaven'?

No. Not at all. Tithing isn't the issue. If one chooses a tenth as a guideline in their giving, then we all have that freedom in Christ.

What's at issue are the priorities in our giving.

You see, for most people, that tenth is the primary, major portion of their giving. When they hand that over to their institutional church organization, it's almost guaranteed that the lion's share of that giving will be consumed into the facility and its costs, which includes the staff and its hirelings.

That clearly violates God's fundamental principles, examples and commands in relation to biblical giving, and giving to the Lord. People can't possibly lavish their primary giving back upon themselves by way of direct benefit from the facility and its many, many luxuries, and expect that to be storing up treasure in Heaven on that basis. It simply doens't work that way.

The primary concern and priorities in our giving should be people, not brick, wood and mortar. We should concern ourselves with people such as a believing friend of mine whose trailer burned down, causing second degree burns over 60% of her ten year old body. The believers in this locale should be seeing to that family's needs in every respect. Instead, most of the people around here will continue to primarily support their facilities and hirelings LONG before they will strain out one drop of sweat, tears, or a penny in support of that family's needs.

This horrid evil has become so well established as a paradigm, that most people are completely blind to the genuine needs in the lives of fellow believers in our own cities, and the needs of others in our respective communities.

Yes, we routinely make sure that the expenses of our facilities are taken care of LONG before we see to the needs of people.

My, but isn't the local expressions of the body of Christ something to behold? Granted, some are doing as they should, but most are self-seeking and self-absorbed, with only token outreaches that amount to a small percentage of their overall intake each week.

Rarely to almost never do the people of institutional church organizations make the effort to educate themselves on what their religious leadership is actually doing with what's entrusted into their hands. Most people assume that the warm fuzzy they feel is the sum total of acceptable conduct within the leadership structure of religious institutions.

That....is tragic. Far too few people are exercising integrity, both in their giving and in their oversight of religious leader's handling of what'e entrusted to them.

Sometimes, the average believer needs a good, swift kick in the kiester to get them to do what's right.

Jr.

[SwordmanJr]

Originally Posted by rava61

Oh, something else.....someone mentioned Abraham's seed. Wow, what a twisted thought - please go back to the flood to find where we Gentiles come from; there were three sons born to Noah...............we are not descended from Abraham, sorry.

I'm not sure who said anything about Abraham's seed, but Abraham's time was LONG after Noah and the flood.

You're rigjht, though. We're not blood-line descendents of Abraham. We're grafted in branches, not natural branches. The natural branches have been cut off and cast aside, but they can also be grafted back in.

You can probably tell that I'm not much of a fan of the militant, Zionist movement most people call modern Israel. Most of the Jews are still scattered all across this earth. I wish them well, but most of all I wish them to find Christ Jesus, for their bloodline discent won't save them in the last day.

Just wait until they start up burnt offerings again. THAT will be a tragic denial of Christ, and a sure-fire ride into the flames of Hell if that's where they place their trust. John Hagee is an idiot if he thinks that their bloodline affiliation will save them. He's all for them having a new temple. I've heard him state that the renewed sacrifices will be a backward-looking exercise. He really needs to get a grip on reality. Modern, blood sacrifices would be a denial of Christ Jesus, not a commemoration of Him.

Jr.

[NotforSale]

A thought came to me last night considering the Tithe.

Does anyone who disagrees with paying tithes, not pay their taxes? Simple question. Yes or no.

If we are to render unto Ceaser the things that be Ceaser's, how about God?

Taxes are based off of percentage.

We are hypocrites if we will pay taxes, based on percentage, yet give only to God when we have enough left over to give.

Try telling the Government that!!

Just a thought!

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

A thought came to me last night considering the Tithe.

Does anyone who disagrees with paying tithes, not pay their taxes? Simple question. Yes or no.

If we are to render unto Ceaser the things that be Ceaser's, how about God?

Taxes are based off of percentage.

We are hypocrites if we will pay taxes, based on percentage, yet give only to God when we have enough left over to give.

Try telling the Government that!!

Just a thought!

I totally and completely disagree with the teaching that the tithe is a law required of NT Saints. I don't even believe that the law of the tithe ever had anything to do with anyone's income. It was an agricultural tithe. Always was... and there is not one word of scripture that ever demonstrates otherwise.

And... we are not hypocrites, as you say, if we give to the government what is required of the government. If it is required... we pay it. If it isn't (ie the tithe) then how does that make one a hypocrite? That is the whole point. It... is... not... required.

But... to answer your question... I give in excess of 10%.

This is one reason why it is so frustrating that this subject cannot be discussed without those making a stand against the teaching of the tithe as a law being deemed selfish etc.

[A.W. Bowman]

Pastors of the many churches I have visited over the years should be very glad that I have not held them to teaching honestly about tithes - from a biblical point of view, rather than from taking a personal, supplementary income position.

First, they would have to pay me my portion of the church tithe, even as a visitor: A portion of the tithe must go to the poor. Then, everyone who works in or for the church is also due their share of the tithe, from those who sing and dance, who tend to the grounds, open the doors, greet people, etc. Then, no one who receives a portion of the tithe that is set aside to the priests (aka ministry) is not allowed to own land or work outside of the church environment. This means everyone except the poor, the widow and the orphan must confine their labor to (and on) the church property.

But, the teachers of the law don't teach all of the applicable law, do they? Do these teachers even know the ten tithing ordinances? If they don't know the law, they should not be teaching it. If they do know the law, then they are deliberately distorting it for their own gain. (See 1 Timothy 1:5-11 and Acts 20:29-35)

But, then again, the church is more like a synagogue than The Temple. So, there is no Temple tax required, and the leaders of the synagogues were not qualified to receive a portion of the priestly tithe.

If it is the will of an assembly to agree with a congregational leader, that in order to be a member of a particular church and attend its meetings, one must pay a tribute to the the local priest, then so be it. All that the rest of asks is that you (anyone) do not attempt to impose your extra biblical laws on the entire body of Christ.

Some ordinances (?) were nailed to the cross, and yet we have been blessed with all heavenly blessings in their stead, we no longer have to "buy blessings" (bribe God by trying to "out give" Him), as it is frequently taught today. That was a great exchange in our favor! Yet - remember this does not relieve us our obligations to support those who go out and preach and teach the gospel, or to continue to take care of the poor, or each other, etc. Giving vs. tithing is NOT an all or nothing proposition. It best summed up in 2 Corinthians 9:6-15.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Pastors of the many churches I have visited over the years should be very glad that I have not held them to teaching honestly about tithes - from a biblical point of view, rather than from taking a personal, supplementary income position.

First, they would have to pay me my portion of the church tithe, even as a visitor: A portion of the tithe must go to the poor. Then, everyone who works in or for the church is also due their share of the tithe, from those who sing and dance, who tend to the grounds, open the doors, greet people, etc. Then, no one who receives a portion of the tithe that is set aside to the priests (aka ministry) is not allowed to own land or work outside of the church environment. This means everyone except the poor, the widow and the orphan must confine their labor to (and on) the church property.

But, the teachers of the law don't teach all of the applicable law, do they? Do these teachers even know the ten tithing ordinances? If they don't know the law, they should not be teaching it. If they do know the law, then they are deliberately distorting it for their own gain. (See 1 Timothy 1:5-11 and Acts 20:29-35)

But, then again, the church is more like a synagogue than The Temple. So, there is no Temple tax required, and the leaders of the synagogues were not qualified to receive a portion of the priestly tithe.

If it is the will of an assembly to agree with a congregational leader, that in order to be a member of a particular church and attend its meetings, one must pay a tribute to the the local priest, then so be it. All that the rest of asks is that you do not attempt to impose your extra biblical laws on the entire body of Christ.

Some ordinances were nailed to the cross, and all of the heavenly blessings have been substituted in their place. That was a great exchange in our favor! Yet - remember this does not relieve us our obligations to support those who go out and preach and teach the gospel, or to continue to take care of the poor, or each other, etc. Giving vs. tithing is NOT an all or nothing proposition. It best summed up in 2 Corinthians 9:6-15.

Well said... great post.

[A.W. Bowman]

I had to make a couple of changes/corrections/additions to my original post. LOLOL, and needed to add the following comment:

After all is said and done, Jesus also recognized that the needs of men to receive their financial due, He instructed Peter to get the required tax money and pay it. Matthew 17:24-27.

This is why I do not make too many local waves with this subject. As stated above, if it is the desire of the congregation to use this method of raising money to pay its local leader for services rendered, then let be so. I choose the direct giving method.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I totally and completely disagree with the teaching that the tithe is a law required of NT Saints. I don't even believe that the law of the tithe ever had anything to do with anyone's income. It was an agricultural tithe. Always was... and there is not one word of scripture that ever demonstrates otherwise.

And... we are not hypocrites, as you say, if we give to the government what is required of the government. If it is required... we pay it. If it isn't (ie the tithe) then how does that make one a hypocrite? That is the whole point. It... is... not... required.

But... to answer your question... I give in excess of 10%.

This is one reason why it is so frustrating that this subject cannot be discussed without those making a stand against the teaching of the tithe as a law being deemed selfish etc.

I think you may have missed my point. First, Jesus said to render what belongs to Ceaser the things that be Ceaser's, and to God the things that belong to God.

To say that Jesus was not talking about money, would be inaccurate. And, the tax has a purpose, just like giving to God; that there may be meat in mine house. Taxes repave our roads, fund our military, put fires out, ect. Tithes help sustain the ministry, keep the lights on, pay for land, buildings, sound equipment, ect. They both can become corrupted, but doesn't change the fact, taxes are needed, just like the Tithe.

People that come to church, not supporting the "Structure", or that don't help sustain those who labor to "Feed" them, are stealing. This may offend you and others reading this, but it's the truth. It creates the "Taker" mindset, or the "Something for nothing (welfare)" mentality. Give me, and I'll take more!

People who learn to Tithe, are blessed, and understand, what is around them comes with a price, a sacrafice, and much hard work. Those who pay taxes do the same thing. They consider what is around them, and become thankful when they see their substance contributed to the nice road they are driving on.

Another story that deals with this subject is the history of Achan. He took what belonged to God, hid it in his tent, and then finding out that his ploy to steal what was God's came with a consequence. 36 men died trying to take Ai, after Jericho was defeated just days earlier. This theivery caused defeat in God's camp, even to the innocent.

In 30 years of serving God, I've seen all spectrums of this subject. I've watched those hord their money, only giving when it's conveinent. It is so obvious they are missing something, and struggles in life seem to always get the best of them. They're never really in, because they have their eye on their wallet. They also never appreciate what is around them, because the building, the lights, the signs, the parking lot, the electricity, the heat, the AC, the Pastor's salary, on and on we could go, is paid by those who dig deep and walk by Faith.

Leaving it up to people to determine what percentage belongs to God will drive Churches to excessive fund raising, begging for offerings, and people who spend what's God's on things that don't last. It will also close the windows of Heaven, period!!

If you don't want to Tithe because you see corrupted ministry or the mishandling of funds, this gives you no excuse to spend it on what you want. The Tithe is God's! And, most who Tithe give much more than 10% because they have proven God. That's right PROVEN Him!! The Bible says to PROVE God. I have, and He has never let me down. The cruse of oil faileth not!

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Leaving it up to people to determine what percentage belongs to God will drive Churches to excessive fund raising, begging for offerings, and people who spend what's God's on things that don't last. It will also close the windows of Heaven, period!!

This is not always necessarily true. I used to attend a church where tithing was not taught, free will offerings were taught as the way to go. This church rarely ever had any fundraisers. Well, I honestly don't remember having any at all. It was a decent-sized church, too. A nice building. Full-time pastor who was supported by the church. I don't remember the pastor ever begging for money. Just passed the offering pans each service, and that was that. The windows of Heaven were not closed, either. It was a blessed church.

I've attended churches where tithing was taught as a command, and they constantly were having fund-raisers and money struggles.

So you can't go by that alone. You have to stick with scripture. Does the Bible require it, or does it not.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

This is not always necessarily true. I used to attend a church where tithing was not taught, free will offerings were taught as the way to go. This church rarely ever had any fundraisers. Well, I honestly don't remember having any at all. It was a decent-sized church, too. A nice building. Full-time pastor who was supported by the church. I don't remember the pastor ever begging for money. Just passed the offering pans each service, and that was that. The windows of Heaven were not closed, either. It was a blessed church.

I've attended churches where tithing was taught as a command, and they constantly were having fund-raisers and money struggles.

So you can't go by that alone. You have to stick with scripture. Does the Bible require it, or does it not.

I don't see any Scriptural reference in your response. In fact, you are going against Scriptural reference. The windows of Heaven opening is Scriptural, based on Tithing and giving. And, a great deal of people may have Tithed in that church, others not knowing if they did. Many people carry this conviction from the past and maintain this practice without wavering.

Also, numbers help a church, which you stated your church as being large. The more people, the less giving is needed to sustain. Starting a Home Missions work 11 years ago, no one knows what sacrafice is until they have experienced this type of ministry. Every resource possible was needed to get this work off the ground.

You also did not respond to what Jesus said; Give what belongs to Ceaser, and give what belongs to God.

What belongs to Ceaser? and what belongs to God? Percentage has to take part in both of these.